johann

either belshik or ink would get high points on what they show on the videos today because they are very strict so you cant judge them on high points for breddinng these two dogs have never had a breeding in denmark and if tehy lived or Belshik lived the danish would not use them because of their low points

sueinc and myret, a dog with an "off switch" needn't be lazy.  Mine still take the initiative of constantly prodding me for interaction and reminding me that they are at my disposal.  They're just not "overcharged" and leaking with symptomatic physiological expressions of suppressed energy.  If I've given my consent, and indicated it's time to train, then the drive is promptly there when needed.  But if I say no, now's not the time, then they can breathe out and let it go, settling down without any visible affects of having pent up all that energy.

Personally, I think that a dog without an "off switch" can lead to less clear-headed and controllable behavior, if not managed skillfuly.  I like my "self regulators", provided they have sufficient "genetic obedience".

Y'know that character on Mad TV, the black guy in the UPS uniform bouncing on his toes, flailing his arms, zooming in and out, and talking fast?  That's too intense, too constant, no "off" switch, and admittedly a bit neurotic.  I've had dogs like that, and they're just not clear-headed enough for me to connect with for an enjoyable training relationship.

Myret, if good handlers can make a good dog look "boring", or the opposite then all dogs you like can´t be judged as better than anything else. I don´t think you know what you talk about, belchick is just one dog and you don´t know the training behind him, he had better points than kimbo so I guess that made also belchick less of a dog. Obviously dogs can get high points but still be good, just look at vasco you liked so much. If they only used dogs based on their points in denmark then why are they using dogs like jucan v peroh, mike weinbergblick and a bunch of others you also see in other countries.

Hi Daryl,  I didn't mean to imply that a dog  with an "off switch" is lazy, I meant that I am the one with lazy issues,  so a dog who sort of has a "we work or else" attitude is better for me, because the "or else" is detrimental to my house, my yard and my mind.  Kind of a joke but also pretty much true too!!  It's as if my dog is thinking "no work today, no problem gives me time to get busy with a few lovely home improvements".  I can stick him in the kennel  too, but he gets antsy there as well.  I just mean this is a better type of dog for me, I don't mean it's a better type of dog. 

Well, I'd probably be a lot lazier myself, but I feel REAL guilty if I don't fulfill the needs of those drives as well.  I guess I'm just saying that even though a dog can contain it well, it still demands my attention in several intermitent periods throughout the day.  Eventually, they'll pipe up and remind me that I'm being remiss.

QUOTE : That is the big problem, the puppy needs to be propped up, as he was not born with the ability to maintain drive on his own. ( off switch ) 

Nope, not if the dog isn't a shitter.  It's born with plenty of ability to maintain drive, the ball is only used to turn on the drive the dog is born with.  Dogs quickly learn to work in drive but you must first teach them what you want.  

Covering for the dogs inability to recover. 

 With puppies the ball brings the drives right back up, with older dogs and very hard corrections the ball brings the drive back up faster.  I'm not saying the dog wouldn't recover without the ball, I'm saying he recovers much faster. The carrot and the stick, oldest teaching theory in the world I bet. 

No, but with out the ball work to condition the dog to STAY in drive longer and longer periods of time, the dogs higher thresholds start to get in the way of training, as the dog is going to work because he has too, and all of a sudden, looks like a lot of the other dogs from the past, or fails.

No, once you are beyond the training phase you don't need the ball to stay in drive for however long you want to work your dog.  The dog works because he has drive, so he doesn't go flat - ever, unless you continually work the dog past the point of exhaustion, mentally or physically. 

No idea why your reply turned blue, ignore it.

If you have to turn something on, it is propped up. You always have to teach a dog what you want. This is nothing new

You are not saying that the dog would not recover, but what are the odds you are willing to find out ? I have never used a carrot and a stick to train a dog. 

Training phase, or have had to condition the dog to stay in drive because the dog would not be able to do it on his own. How long is a Sch routine ?? about 7 minutes maybe ? The dog works because you conditioned a specific response with the ball. Not because the dog had it to begin with. Let me take away your ball and lets see how you like the dogs you train from there on.

 

everyone still trying to defend which sport is best...or which breeder is breeding the best german Shepherd for ring, schutzhund,knvp...whatever....have we come to a consenses yet:-) 

johann

when Belshik was alive it was a different time than the later years dogs at that time got good points even if they did not have the best obedience in C today many of these past dogs would not have made it that far in schh sadly

if a handler is making a good dog look boring maybe then the dog is not that good anyway

Jucan Von peroh have never been used that much in Denmark, he has had very few breedings  but many others have like Rosso, eros,ellute, zico vom adelegg,olek vom meineche, and much more. none of them is my kind of dog.


never said that I would by a dog in Denmark they don't breed for exstreme they breed for points and that you can see in the dogs they breed today not what they breed for 15years ago.

no I dont think I will ever buy a dog in Denmark maybe if I like the pedigree and parents but that are point dogs and only schh dogs


Ofcourse I know what I'm talking about take dogs are born with some genetic drives in all phases both prey,hunt,defense  some have have more and some have less of the drive some have high ,some have exstreme high witch those dogs can be difficult to train because of their exstreme drive not a dog for one that wants the high points and if the dog to have an opinion of its own thats even worse for a competitor.

it like to see the exstreme one especially if they to have their own opinion not to handler soft but one like Ink Zoterhund is good dog and many of the hard exstreme dogs can handle hard corrections and can handle harsh training methods Zender vom lusondai was a good dog (not because of his points)

I never said that there no good dogs in schh there is but many of them that the breeders are selecting are the high score ones not necceceryly the genetic strong  ones that is is getting no points because he was to exstreme to pass and the handler has to take some other methods in use.take Laika a female in tiekerhook kennel I like her alot

Lexus is not a dog with exstreme drive he has normal to high drive nothing special about him or what I've seen after the they are slow in their prey drive almost like a turtle



we will never agree on this subject that is why people are getting a mal today because of those breeders that only breeds the dogs for schh and show they havent proven a thing can they work in exstreme enviroment,can they hold the drive for a long time , can the manage hars corrections without loosing drive and so on and many cannot handle these things and have never been tested before they where bred  both females and males.can they jump high jumps .

mike vom weinbergblick is used in Denmark because John Jabina has him and the things that are said about him,but I will almost guaranty you that the breeders use him in denmark because john has him and they have heard good things on this dog from Sweden many of them have just bred  their dogs to him without knowing and damn thing about him or the pedigree behind him

they could have done this with any dog and they would believe it not checking it out before and just breeding the dog

in sweden they have have the MH test I would certainly like to see 4 and especially 5 in the playfaces like if the dog will follow a white thing when moving or when they are plying tug with a tug.

judron

nope and we will not ever agree on this subject but we are all in the right to own opnions