WL + SL = BL??? - Page 12

Gustav,
This thread has been extremely informative for me ESPECIALLY when you heavy hitters enter into a discussion / debate amongst each other.  It is even more interesting when past / current breedings of SL and WL are used as an example. Very interesting to hear the plans of those involved...just not sure I can keep this thread going another eight years to get to the desired generations to see if it was a success! I just wish there were more like you and more interested in presenting possible solutions.

IMPO, the crux of these WL/SL crosses is that you very seldom find a breeder commited enough to the concept and execution to:
a- Use top quality breeding stock.  Usually, one of the parents is of exceptional (that is notoriously eye-catching) quality while the other party is of rather pedestrian quality.
b- Use of top quality breeding stock while breeding towards a solid temperament base, which IMPO would require a SL dog (preferably the female) that has a hard temperament along with appropriate drives for either sport or real protection,depending of what you are breeding for.  I recall that in another thread someone brought forth a well bred cross http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=566155 
Finsterling d Ulmenthal is a very nice looking SChH-3 dog with a KKL-1 who has gone to the BSZS.
In this crossing, also by a very good looking WL sire, http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=739067 
we can see the meeting of well bred parents from either line producing a V rated, SchH-3, KKL-1 female.

The problem is not really in the concept, but the willingess by the breeder to attempt to cross that Rubicon of breeding a high quality dog, from high quality assets for a very narrow sliver ofthe market that does want a GSD of pre-Martins' capabilities.  Most don't execute well because it makes little sense to use one of your better bitches for a breeding that may be hard to sell when you can mate with a like (WL to WL or SL to SL) and sell the pups quickly and well.

While it is easy to blame the breeders, it is the consumer's fault that the breed is in the state it is in with SL dogs that are lacking in temperament and drives because they get in the way of training them and showing them, or little point/sleve whores designed to be easy and quick to train, and to achieve trial high scores and little else, because that is what sells.

Don't get me wrong, I find that there are many well conformed and aesthetically pleasing WL dogs, but that is not what breeders are focusing in, and sadly, they are as scarce as showlines who would do well at the BSP. Here's a nice example of a nice looking, yet not famous WL dog:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=122474
And another line-bred Major vom Phoenix dog:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=427139
( I researched this line for personal reasons) that is well bred for both conformation as well as performance.  Yet, for this thread, I think that a well accomplished breeder such as d'Ulmenthal, or Haus Pe-Ja, has the assets, knowledge and will to put better breeding stock towards this kind of breeding with a good measure of success.

Your average breeder is usually lacking in one of those areas which is why weseldom see top-notch, complementary, specimens used for these types of crosses.

BTW, this WL/SL cross is in my female's pedigree:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=78654
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/48836/Enschi-vom-gelben-Rühl

Nothing truly new in the concept.

Charlie,
Awesome examples and WOW to Finsterling d`Ulmental  !!!!!  I see he is also out of Ursus and his pedigree is exactly what this thread was about.  But the key would then be to see what further generations probuce.  I wonder how D'Ulmental will breed any picks they keep back?

When my husband first got into Schutzhund,(early 80's) breeding WL to SL was very common and most of the imports being brought in by the Schutzhund enthusiasts of the time were a combo of the big names in both venues. I think both camps came to the realization that they weren't getting what they really wanted and the practice went by the wayside and the divide became deeper. 



The reason the divide became deeper was NOT because the breeders weren't getting what they wanted, but because the mixes couldn't win! Only the pretty black and red Martin-style shepherds were being selected by the SV judges. Koos Hassing begged the head of the SV (I think it was Peter Messler at the time?) to select sable dogs for VA placings, but he refused, saying, "Not as long as I'm head of the SV!


And it's been that way ever since! 
 for VAfffor

It may have taken this kind of sable, but they have cracked the top-ten:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=20964

Timo is one of my favorite GSD's in recent decades.  VA-2 two years in a row, and to quote boxers: "he was robbed"...  Should have been VA-1

Charlie, there's a lot of truth in your second to last post. 

I tried to not let looks, structure, and bone slip through the cracks, produced some nice looking dogs (imho,lol) and I noticed there does seem to be a general consensus/preconceived notion among wl folks that a dog must be ugly to work well...  I have had more than a few surprised comments that one dog in particular is quite intense, because she's stunning (other people's opinion, too, not just mine, lol). 

I think there is such a rift and difference in opinion of what constitutes balanced, driven, aesthetically pleasing, etc., that we will NEVER reach a consensus. There are dogs that people tell me have all my criteria in spades- I meet the dog, and it's nothing I would feed. And vice versa- I tell someone a dog is beautiful, to boot, and they say they don't like its stronger muzzle and it looks more like a mastiff. To each his own, fortunately, or unfortunately. 

nypiper: Well it is not just Ursus. You also have Max de la Logia dei Mercanti, who also produces good ability. So. You have a great WL pedigree in Javir vTM, who can compete in conformation, and Showline dogs of good drives and temperaments producing a dog that can do both. I certainly hope that the SV will overcome the schism and allow blacks, greys and sables to compete on a level field as it should be to the benefit of the breed.

"I certainly hope that the SV will overcome the schism and allow blacks, greys and sables to compete on a level field as it should be to the benefit of the breed."

Interesting, I never considered before how that might impact the split, but it's sort of inversely proportional to my proposition to get B&T more widespread into the workinglines.  WL dogs would also then be "more competitive" in the conformation ring.  But really, since the upcoming RSV2000, who needs the SV anyway?  Cut out the tumor, and there'd be nothing left.

Timo to me is like Triumphs Gucci. Both were abberations(for practical purposes), that SL people have used to justify the criticisms in their lack of work and color. That is not to criticize them, they were great dogs, but two dogs out of tens of thousands over past twenty years placing high in work and show.....that in itself speaks volumes about the distortion.
@ Charlie....though i agree with some of what you say....my problem is this. Out of a litter of 8 SL dogs say you get a puppy with super wotking traits, (a female), and maybe three others are good, and maybe three are soft, and maybe one is exact opposite of first and weaknerved. Now you breed this super strong female out of the litter to the proverbial WL, what do you think will have a bigger impact in her contribution to the litter....1) what she herself is? 2) or what the consensus of what the litter is from which she comes. So now when the pups come out that reflect a lot of what her littermates were....then the WL dog gets tarnished for producing nerviness, weak nerves or sharp dogs. Its not an equal equation genetically, so it can't be fixed with one generation breedings to what you are trying to improve. JMO