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by nypiper127 on 15 May 2012 - 22:05
Sky,
I would definately take a dog like that (given sound temperment etc). I am not a big fan of the heavy angulation....makes me nervous! My guy is a wee bit of a banana back.
I would definately take a dog like that (given sound temperment etc). I am not a big fan of the heavy angulation....makes me nervous! My guy is a wee bit of a banana back.
by DeesWolf on 15 May 2012 - 22:05
nypiper,
I guess I should explain more indepth my view on the "golden middle" Personally, I think it has a become a buzz phrase for a lot of people and the actual definition of it has been lost on its way to advertising. Over the years, the term has become an advertisment gimmick for SL breeders. It has become the adjective used to describe a dog that is not the ideal of the standard. Some carry on that the SL in the golden middle as it is not an "extreme, like THOSE working line dogs." Ask 5 SL breeders and 5 WL breeders what they think the definition of Golden Middle is, and you will most likely hear the SL folks say it is the dogs they produce. The WL folks will tell you it is somewhere in the middle of the WL dogs.
To comment on your statements about beauty. It truly is in the eye of the beholder or in some cases the judges. For me, I can look at a dog and see an appealing appearance, however, that can all be lost if the dog is not the whole package. For me, the beauty of the dog is in the work it does happily, joyfully, and correctly. I will oooooh and aaaaaaah over a black sable dog ALL day long! mainly because my all time favorite GSD was my brother's black sable. I can stand on the sidelines of a sieger show, gaze out over the lines of black & reds, and not find one of them appealing. This is because I know that there will be very few of them who will show me what I want to see, during the performance test (not that I place a lot of stock in the test, but I would like to see some real courage). As someone on here once said, "the wow factor is lost, when you look under the hood of a lamborgini and you find the engine of a Nova."
Sorry to ruin your walk with your dog ;-)
I guess I should explain more indepth my view on the "golden middle" Personally, I think it has a become a buzz phrase for a lot of people and the actual definition of it has been lost on its way to advertising. Over the years, the term has become an advertisment gimmick for SL breeders. It has become the adjective used to describe a dog that is not the ideal of the standard. Some carry on that the SL in the golden middle as it is not an "extreme, like THOSE working line dogs." Ask 5 SL breeders and 5 WL breeders what they think the definition of Golden Middle is, and you will most likely hear the SL folks say it is the dogs they produce. The WL folks will tell you it is somewhere in the middle of the WL dogs.
To comment on your statements about beauty. It truly is in the eye of the beholder or in some cases the judges. For me, I can look at a dog and see an appealing appearance, however, that can all be lost if the dog is not the whole package. For me, the beauty of the dog is in the work it does happily, joyfully, and correctly. I will oooooh and aaaaaaah over a black sable dog ALL day long! mainly because my all time favorite GSD was my brother's black sable. I can stand on the sidelines of a sieger show, gaze out over the lines of black & reds, and not find one of them appealing. This is because I know that there will be very few of them who will show me what I want to see, during the performance test (not that I place a lot of stock in the test, but I would like to see some real courage). As someone on here once said, "the wow factor is lost, when you look under the hood of a lamborgini and you find the engine of a Nova."
Sorry to ruin your walk with your dog ;-)
by Ibrahim on 15 May 2012 - 22:05
Beauty does not mean the whole package, perfect means the whole package, jmo. Otherwise we wouldn't have different vocabularies like strong, athletic, substantial, balanced etc etc. Who doesn't like his dog? who thinks his dog is ugly? are all dogs beautiful?, beautiful is beautiful not more not less. When you talk about mere beauty there is no breed more beautiful than a well built beautifully structured and angulated GSD gaiting with pride showing full interest and enthusiasm, fluid and ready to gait endlessely. That is beauty, it's not all yes but that's beauty. There is nothing more beautiful than a show GSD puppy coat when you look at those hairs with several shining colors pushing in all directions from its chest and neck. That does not mean other colors are not beautiful on their own. Beautiful is what it is "beautiful".
Ibrahim
Ibrahim
by nypiper127 on 15 May 2012 - 23:05
A gift to the WL side:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3VghnNEpc
by nypiper127 on 15 May 2012 - 23:05
by joanro on 16 May 2012 - 03:05
When you're talking about real beauty, there truly is nothing more beautiful than an athletically structured, moderately angulated gsd tirelessly trotting along with you through the woods,sun glinting off splendid black tipped rust and grey coat; ears erect and catching every sound ; eyes piercing the depths of forest shadows; the nose absorbing exciting tell tale scents lingering in the damp vegetation; all in anticipation of the opportunity to explode into full speed after the unwary, careless cottontail !!
by Chaz Reinhold on 16 May 2012 - 04:05
Here's a gift to you. Claudia is a hell of a trainer. It is no surprise that she could train a well driven dog of any breed. Ivan is just as good of a trainer, if not one of the best. How did he do with that SL gsd?
by Gustav on 16 May 2012 - 11:05
Dee, I like your vision and determination and agree with much of what you see and perceive. I am in that second class of WL breeders you name and always have been. I just don't view it as WL, I view it as a German Shepherd that can work. The beauty of any GS to me is to watch it gracefully work at its task. The better it works the more graceful it is..the more beautiful..to me.
I also did a SL/WL breeding about 15 years ago. I kept pick puppy and titled it in Sch. He was very dark black and tan(almost bi-color), had fabulous temperament and looks. They were nice looking dogs, but you had issues of dogs being sharp, because of weaker nerves and stronger genetic aggression from WL side. Both parents had very nice Temperament, and my SL female actually was a daughter of brother to Kimon. This going back to Mutz v Peltzerferm as well as the obvious Wienereau dogs. One male is 14 years old now, owned by Deleware State Trooper and family, and his wife just got another male through me 6 months ago because she liked this dog so much.
My point is if you start down this road, you have to continue to go to working lines genetically although you can make sure they have the phenotype you want.
One of the other problems with a mixing of the lines, is often the drives of WL are rather extreme. Now if you have a working line with extreme drive and the "nervebase" to go along with it, then the dog can cap that drive and make a good overall dog. But often the SL DON't have the generational strength of nervebase to give the pups the foundation to handle working lines drive. These are the kinda of WL you outlined as the podium WL. Unfortunately, the sportier podium WL are very popular right now. Many people don't understand the difference in drives and temperament. You can have good temperament without over the top drives, but you can't have good temperament without good nervebase. Many WL dogs today have less than stellar nervebase, but have very strong drives, yet are lacking, and i see it all the time in environmental issues and issues of courage. Of course Sch won't test either of these aspects adequately anymore, thus SL and WL can very easily acheive a Sch degree.
Good Luck to your program, and hopefully the thread's dialogue helps the OP.
I also did a SL/WL breeding about 15 years ago. I kept pick puppy and titled it in Sch. He was very dark black and tan(almost bi-color), had fabulous temperament and looks. They were nice looking dogs, but you had issues of dogs being sharp, because of weaker nerves and stronger genetic aggression from WL side. Both parents had very nice Temperament, and my SL female actually was a daughter of brother to Kimon. This going back to Mutz v Peltzerferm as well as the obvious Wienereau dogs. One male is 14 years old now, owned by Deleware State Trooper and family, and his wife just got another male through me 6 months ago because she liked this dog so much.
My point is if you start down this road, you have to continue to go to working lines genetically although you can make sure they have the phenotype you want.
One of the other problems with a mixing of the lines, is often the drives of WL are rather extreme. Now if you have a working line with extreme drive and the "nervebase" to go along with it, then the dog can cap that drive and make a good overall dog. But often the SL DON't have the generational strength of nervebase to give the pups the foundation to handle working lines drive. These are the kinda of WL you outlined as the podium WL. Unfortunately, the sportier podium WL are very popular right now. Many people don't understand the difference in drives and temperament. You can have good temperament without over the top drives, but you can't have good temperament without good nervebase. Many WL dogs today have less than stellar nervebase, but have very strong drives, yet are lacking, and i see it all the time in environmental issues and issues of courage. Of course Sch won't test either of these aspects adequately anymore, thus SL and WL can very easily acheive a Sch degree.
Good Luck to your program, and hopefully the thread's dialogue helps the OP.
by Sunsilver on 16 May 2012 - 12:05
Just wanted to add my own insights here from what happens with another breed when you cross lines.
As many of you know, the Shiloh Shepherd was bred to produce a soft dog that just about anyone could handle. Breeders who split with the parent club (the ISSR) are cut off from being able to breed back to the ISSR lines. This led to massive inbreeding on the non-ISSR stock.
Finally, the breeders were forced to back cross to the German Shepherd. Of course, most of the GSDs had higher drive, and this tended to produce dogs with sharp-shy temperaments, especially when the dogs were crossed to working line GSDs.
As many of you know, the Shiloh Shepherd was bred to produce a soft dog that just about anyone could handle. Breeders who split with the parent club (the ISSR) are cut off from being able to breed back to the ISSR lines. This led to massive inbreeding on the non-ISSR stock.
Finally, the breeders were forced to back cross to the German Shepherd. Of course, most of the GSDs had higher drive, and this tended to produce dogs with sharp-shy temperaments, especially when the dogs were crossed to working line GSDs.
by BoCRon on 16 May 2012 - 12:05
When my husband first got into Schutzhund,(early 80's) breeding WL to SL was very common and most of the imports being brought in by the Schutzhund enthusiasts of the time were a combo of the big names in both venues. I think both camps came to the realization that they weren't getting what they really wanted and the practice went by the wayside and the divide became deeper. If you go back in many of the well known dogs of that time you will see the mix very regularly.
As to the beauty thing, as others have said it's in the eye of the beholder. I have a SL male who is stunning and I get constant comments from total strangers on his good looks. While I love him to death, to me he reminds me of a Tennessee Walking horse, pretty to watch but not functional for what I want to do. We have had WL dogs for years because that is the look we prefer and have always thought that the look of the WL dogs is the "prettier" of all the types out there.
As to the beauty thing, as others have said it's in the eye of the beholder. I have a SL male who is stunning and I get constant comments from total strangers on his good looks. While I love him to death, to me he reminds me of a Tennessee Walking horse, pretty to watch but not functional for what I want to do. We have had WL dogs for years because that is the look we prefer and have always thought that the look of the WL dogs is the "prettier" of all the types out there.
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