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by sueincc on 24 July 2011 - 14:07
That is the big problem, the puppy needs to be propped up, as he was not born with the ability to maintain drive on his own. ( off switch )
Nope, not if the dog isn't a shitter. It's born with plenty of ability to maintain drive, the ball is only used to turn on the drive the dog is born with. Dogs quickly learn to work in drive but you must first teach them what you want.
Covering for the dogs inability to recover.
With puppies the ball brings the drives right back up, with older dogs and very hard corrections the ball brings the drive back up faster. I'm not saying the dog wouldn't recover without the ball, I'm saying he recovers much faster. The carrot and the stick, oldest teaching theory in the world I bet.
No, but with out the ball work to condition the dog to STAY in drive longer and longer periods of time, the dogs higher thresholds start to get in the way of training, as the dog is going to work because he has too, and all of a sudden, looks like a lot of the other dogs from the past, or fails.
No, once you are beyond the training phase you don't need the ball to stay in drive for however long you want to work your dog. The dog works because he has drive, so he doesn't go flat - ever, unless you continually work the dog past the point of exhaustion, mentally or physically.
I'm glad you mentioned "off switch", because I've never really understood what that term means, and I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. Is a dog with an "off switch" one who is really calm all the time, in the house for example, and then as soon as you take him to the field he goes into drive? I've always thought my dogs had "off switches" because they can relax after working every day, "a tired dog is a good dog", kind of a thing? BUT if not worked they get a little bit crazy and find stuff to get into on their own. So would a dog who does not have an off switch be a dog who can never relax, regardless of how often he is trained, unless he's asleep, one of those dogs who is always pacing around and vibrating if he's not working?
Nope, not if the dog isn't a shitter. It's born with plenty of ability to maintain drive, the ball is only used to turn on the drive the dog is born with. Dogs quickly learn to work in drive but you must first teach them what you want.
Covering for the dogs inability to recover.
With puppies the ball brings the drives right back up, with older dogs and very hard corrections the ball brings the drive back up faster. I'm not saying the dog wouldn't recover without the ball, I'm saying he recovers much faster. The carrot and the stick, oldest teaching theory in the world I bet.
No, but with out the ball work to condition the dog to STAY in drive longer and longer periods of time, the dogs higher thresholds start to get in the way of training, as the dog is going to work because he has too, and all of a sudden, looks like a lot of the other dogs from the past, or fails.
No, once you are beyond the training phase you don't need the ball to stay in drive for however long you want to work your dog. The dog works because he has drive, so he doesn't go flat - ever, unless you continually work the dog past the point of exhaustion, mentally or physically.
I'm glad you mentioned "off switch", because I've never really understood what that term means, and I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. Is a dog with an "off switch" one who is really calm all the time, in the house for example, and then as soon as you take him to the field he goes into drive? I've always thought my dogs had "off switches" because they can relax after working every day, "a tired dog is a good dog", kind of a thing? BUT if not worked they get a little bit crazy and find stuff to get into on their own. So would a dog who does not have an off switch be a dog who can never relax, regardless of how often he is trained, unless he's asleep, one of those dogs who is always pacing around and vibrating if he's not working?
by darylehret on 24 July 2011 - 15:07
I never understood what "a tired dog is a good dog" was supposed to mean. I mean, I have dogs that can blow energy all day nonstop, and never want to quit, never tire. And even if they could be energetically subdued, there obviously is no connection to their obedience, or whatever "good/bad" is supposed to mean.
But to me, what is most desireable is a dog that can quickly transition to a settled state of mind when not being required to work in drive, and if needed fire back up in an instant. This kind of dog isn't merely obediently suppressing a lot of energy, loaded and about to burst, but actually has the ability to self-regulate it's own drive according to the context of the current situation. That is what I would consider having an "on/off switch".
But to me, what is most desireable is a dog that can quickly transition to a settled state of mind when not being required to work in drive, and if needed fire back up in an instant. This kind of dog isn't merely obediently suppressing a lot of energy, loaded and about to burst, but actually has the ability to self-regulate it's own drive according to the context of the current situation. That is what I would consider having an "on/off switch".
by Changer on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
OMG! I logged my way through this whole post to boil it down to a couple people who obviously haven't done ring sport (and some who have) and feel free to actually comment.
The sports are different. Period. They select for different things. There are some really good gsds out there that could do french ring at a high level. But the athleticism for a long time will always be a problem with the gsd. Sure, they can do the palisade at 2 years old. But can they do it at 6 years? Can their bodies hold up to the pounding of training the palisade for 6 years? Or actually, more importantly, the broad jump?
Speed, defense, pressure, whatever... Again, the sports put different pressures on the dogs.
And regarding the outs.... there is no "transition period" in ring for the dog to "cycle" down. Ha.
Shade
The sports are different. Period. They select for different things. There are some really good gsds out there that could do french ring at a high level. But the athleticism for a long time will always be a problem with the gsd. Sure, they can do the palisade at 2 years old. But can they do it at 6 years? Can their bodies hold up to the pounding of training the palisade for 6 years? Or actually, more importantly, the broad jump?
Speed, defense, pressure, whatever... Again, the sports put different pressures on the dogs.
And regarding the outs.... there is no "transition period" in ring for the dog to "cycle" down. Ha.
Shade
by sueincc on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
Hi Darryl, When I say "a good dog is a tired dog" I am not referring to a dog who wants to quit. I am saying that a tired dog is not going to pace, vibrate and generally get into shit because he's bored, looking for something to do. I personally wouldn't want one of these "self regulators" you speak of, because I do have a tendency to get lazy, and therefore I need a dog who will motivate me not to be too lazy, or else suffer his consequences....hahaha
by myret on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
johann
I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
actually it's easier and and work with a
I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
actually it's easier and and work with a
by myret on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
actually it's easier and and work with a prey
actually it's easier and and work with a prey
by myret on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
johann
I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
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I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
by myret on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
actually it's easier and and work with a prey
actually it's easier and and work with a prey
by myret on 24 July 2011 - 17:07
I see nowhere in my post that I want a soft dog without a stable temperament, on the contrary, so I want it but that a dog is motivated by its prey drive does not mean that it is unstable. I'm not interested in a dog falling in drive because it does not tolerate reprimand or other discomfort
actually it's easier and and work with a
actually it's easier and and work with a
by myret on 24 July 2011 - 18:07
why cant it send all my post weird.
I dont see nowhere in my posts that I want a soft dog without a stable temperement on the contrary, so because if I want a dog that is motivated by his prey drive does not mean he is a soft or not stable ,I'm not intested in a dog that cannot hokd its drive because of anything .
actually its easier to work a preydriven in any sport because he is easely motivated, and they can learn to act and be a denfence driven dog when it is needed ,more than the other way arround if the dog lack prey they are not that easy to work with and motivate.
Lubeck is not an unstable dog on the contrary he is very stable good temperement and had tons of drive
I dont see nowhere in my posts that I want a soft dog without a stable temperement on the contrary, so because if I want a dog that is motivated by his prey drive does not mean he is a soft or not stable ,I'm not intested in a dog that cannot hokd its drive because of anything .
actually its easier to work a preydriven in any sport because he is easely motivated, and they can learn to act and be a denfence driven dog when it is needed ,more than the other way arround if the dog lack prey they are not that easy to work with and motivate.
Lubeck is not an unstable dog on the contrary he is very stable good temperement and had tons of drive
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