WL + SL = BL??? - Page 10

Can anybody tell me the definition of "insanity"??

Nypiper, Quote " My question is why would you chose to breed your female puppy to a WL stud rather than a SL stud" ?    You ask a very good question, and one several people have asked me of late. The number one reason I would breed her to a working line is, I just brought in what I wanted, if I bred to a SL (of which there are very few who meet my standard, that she wouldn't be related to, closely) I would most likely be diluting what I already gained. To continue the type of outcross breeding that my line has, I need to line breed on her sire side to bring more of what I am looking for. A puppy from that breeding, I would do the same thing, do another line breeding back to the sire's side. At this point, a puppy from that breeding, if I chose could be bred back to a SL. However, again I would be faced with the never ending issue, that the majority of show line dogs are bland, and NOT what I want in my line. I am ever hopeful, that the show line world will awaken from their denial and produce not for color, looks, or from the stockpile of hunde de jour.

darylehret, Quote " Beautiful dog in the avatar, by the way."  Thank you! That is Diva, the female I kept from this breeding.

In general:
The decision to cross the lines, was not an easy one, and finding the right stud was not easy. The past year, since I made the choice and had to live with and care for the puppies, has not been an easy one. I knew what I was getting into, and I was almost fully prepared for the year of extended stay the puppies would have. The downside, was I did not get to do many of the normal dog activities I would normally engage in because I had extra dogs to care for. Even my attendance at club was down, as is my doggie bank account. The upside? I earned an education about this litter of pups that is invaluable to me. I got to know them as dogs and not just puppies. When each of the females who has left was handed over to their new owners, I knew without a doubt what I was putting in their hands.

There will always be debate about crossing the lines. I do not think it is necessarily a bad debate, as I think each time I see constructive discussion, I have learned a little more. Often times, I think wl and sl fans are preaching to the choir and they do not realize it. We all know that there are some SL breeders who will live in denial and continue to produce less than the "golden middle" because they mass produce litters based on the stud's "accomplishments". They will always keep back the puppies they think they can continue making money on, and sell the others to family homes who want a pet, or love the look of the cookie cutter black & red. Plus they can sell those puppies for 2500.00 3500.00 a piece. They also perpetuate the myth that the normal every day family could not possibly live with a working line dog because of the drives, so why not spend your hard earned money on this black & red whose father is so and so, VA blah blah blah, and there is a waiting list a mile long for one of those puppies. On the flip side of that coin are some working line breeders who want to produce working monsters. IMO, the BIG difference between show line breeders and working line breeders and what they produce is the FACT that the majority of show line breeders do in fact breed for what sells and what looks good moving in a circle to the left. Also, I should not forget the breeders who show in the ring, never even put a BH on their dogs, but breed the hell out of them, because they have parents or grandparents that were HGH. There are two WL camps of breeders. 1) those who breed specifically with the goal of producing dogs that will excel at protection sports, earn a spot on a podium or tough as nails police work. 2) the breeders who breed to produce utility dogs. Well rounded dogs that can excel at several different jobs, herding, IPO, police work, and other dog type competitions. These dogs may never sit proudly with an adoring focus to their handler on a podium but they closely resemble the ideal of the GSD as originally outlined by the Captain.

I will admit that I see on a weekly basis literally hundreds of photos posted by show line breeders of their dogs in stacks. Hardly EVER do those same breeders post pictures of their show dogs actually working, at whatever they do. In the same token, I don't often see working folks post stack pictures of their dogs, but I see literally hundreds of photos of the dog working, hanging with the kids, and videos of the dogs actually engaging in training and trialing.

The above statement brings me to my final thoughts for this post, no matter whether a GSD is SL or WL there has to be a balance. On both sides of the fence the scale is tipped in one direction. The problem is, SL breeders are not willing to find the balance, as it is a money loser for them. Plus, it will take more than their life time to correct the ill that has been done in the last 40 years. Between correct temperament and correct structure, structure is easier to fortify. WL folks have a better chance of correcting structure issues, because the majority have good character. Sadly, the same cannot be said for the SL. It is hard work, determination, and willingness on the part of SL breeders that is lacking, oh and the fact that for the majority of them, money is the driving force. I do think that the crossing of lines is more apt to occur with breeders who are small scale. I define small scale as those who produce maybe a litter a year or every other year. The large scale breeders who engage in crossing the lines, do so on a small scale. They either have a majority of SL who breed to SL or WL that are only bred to working line, and just a select few SL females who are bred to WL males. Additionally, and I promise, this is my last point on this post, some die hard either/or folks need to look back and see that in the 70s even into the late 80s a LOT of WL breeders produced litters of half WL and SL. The concept of crossing lines really is not new, there are just a lot of new people with GSDs, who do not recognize names and kennels on some of their dogs' pedigrees.

Dee

Judges of GSD'a at shows?

Ibrahim, I am a firm believer that if you cannot devote the time to a certain breed that you want, maybe that breed is not for you (in general, not you specifically). We all know someone who has obtained a border collie, and then they themself went insane because they were clueless as to what that breed of dog truly needs. It is the same for GSDs. Just because someone likes the look of the breed, or the "coolness" factor of owning one, or face it the idiot who wants a penis on a leash, does not mean they should have one. Why should we, as protectors of the breed "tone" the breed down so every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wants one can have one? Let them get a lab, golden, or poodle. People who want the breed and expect it to be a couch warmer are not what the breed was intended for, just like you would not own a shih tzu to compete in Mondio or a presa to go bird hunting.

this snippit is from 1922 so have things really changed that much?  

Von Stephanitz had become alarmed at the trend in the breed toward oversized square dogs. Other problems included lack of steady temperament and faults . 

  Seems like there have been two or more camps for a very very long time.   What I am seeing at the moment is Showline breeders working very hard at temperment improvement, the good ones are getting really good and a disturbing trend toward really soft temperments in dark sables ( breeding for color only, although I love them) that is causing a weakening in the WL's. Before anyone gets pissy I know there are great dark sables, the point is that color is being  geared toward the pet market therefore softened for the trend.   With anything trends do more harm than good.   BOTH working and showline people are ignoring the obvious in the lines.  Both arenas need improvement, why do you think sport people are moving towards other breeds.  This is one of those arguments that has been going on for almost 100 years.  Quit argueing over what is a better GSD and get out there and do something with your dogs! 

This is just my honest personal opinion... Gait in the German Shepherd Dog has no real purpose in modern day enviroment. 

The Straight Wall have been removed from Schh because of the showlines body conformation.  I struggle to see where the gait is so important to the GSD.  They dont tend sheep anymore like they use too.  Ibrahim what use does the gait have for a normal pet owner who just wants a companion?  This is the biggest problem with show dogs for me is their body conformation for the show ring.  Gait really means nothing to me.

Look at the dog in my Avatar.  She is a black and tan but look at her body.  Nypiper would you take a dog like mine with her conformation or do you also want the gait?

a quarter of my waking day is hardly dedicated to my dogs.  They have drive coming out of their ears and asses and they've learned what is appropriate and what isn't.  The time they get is quality and they can sit for 8 hours in my home doing nothing while i'm gone and they can lay at my feet once I get there because I did put in the work to train them.  I can also get up and they'll go 24 hours non-stop if that's what I ask them to do and because they can.  Nobody needs to breed a low drive shell of a dog.  I don't care if someone wants a companion dog, what do you think I got mine for?  Protection?  please, if shit hits the fan, the dogs are going to be protected by my gun, not me by their teeth.  Their drives aren't extreme, they're normal.  Sure they're extreme for someone that just wants a dog to sit around all day, but it's not when you consider it's a working breed of dog.

gait is not important. blasphemy.

Daryl,
Your last post was VERY informative and enlightening and actually meshes in nicely with Dee's last answer and plan.  They key is (and this applies to pretty much anything) is not to do it half assed!  In for a penny, in for a pound and this goes to responsibility.  I would think Dee's life, or those like her, would be much easier if there was a good core group of breeders with the same experience, knowledge, dedication and plans!  There would then be a stable of breeders with dogs (maybe half working for SL betterment and half working for WL betterment) working together...sharing ALL scientific information both good and BAD that could ensure "safe" breeding stock at the 4th generation.
I must admit that I still find it amazing some people think it is a crime to have a "pretty" dog.  I do not see the problem with breeding for something that is pleasing to the eye.  I DO NOT THINK IT SHOULD BE DONE AT THE EXPENSE OF PERFORMANCE / TEMPERMENT.   There are always people on here complimenting each others avatars without even knowing the dogs ability / temperment.  It is pleassing to us.  Why, even the gruff Daryl complimented an avatar a few posts ago!!!  How many times has anyone here gone through the classifieds of dogs...found one that caught their eye, and then examined their pedigrees?  (or is that just me)!!  How many times have any of you just watched your dog trotting across the field, or caught him (or her) focused on something and just thought to yourself "WOW".  I am talking about your dog just "being".  I know you get plenty of WOWs when you see that dog hit a sleeve like a defensive end or ace an agility course etc.  I am saying again that it is not a crime to appreciate beauty and to strive for it as long as integrity is not compromised.
I agree with Dee on the "golden middle" I however now think it should not apply to the dogs but probably the breeders! HA  There are extremists on both side and IMHO they should never be representitive of the breed!

Dee now thanks to you I will NEVER EVER tak my guy for a walk....A "penis on a leash" HA!!!  You just ruined one of the most relaxing parts of my day!