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by Paul Garrison on 01 February 2014 - 17:02
I love to be around civil dogs and people. lol My bitch at the the time was Anouschka v. Grauen-Stahlhammer had to be spayed because of a uterine infection we could not rid her of. Take a look at her pedgree. I bred her to Pirry twice but no puppy lived longer then 3 days. I felt bad for her as she miss the puppies for weeks. I also felt bad for me also, I believe it was a breeding of a lifetime. I have been feeding my need to bred dogs with a stock dog program for years, but now, it is lacking for my real deal dog desires.
This time aroung I hope to bred that just right dog that nobody has screwed up. (I want to screw up my oun dog) lol but I want the whole litter. This is why I want a "extreme female" it is a starting point and go from there. One example I can think of is in my cattle dog program. Stock dogs have the same problem as all other working breeds, too many "just pets" and not enough good working dogs. I have some real nice dogs that produce some real nice dogs and some real soft dogs and crap as well. But I have a female that is too hard. Too aggressive, too much bite, does not go out of drive well at all. Way to hard on cattle and would kill goats and sheep. But in theory (and it is all theory) she will bring more of these things back into the gene pool. Will I get culls? Yes but I already get culls so my theory is to step it up with more hardness and aggression. Time will tell.
The test of the dog is the show but the test of the blood line is time.
This time aroung I hope to bred that just right dog that nobody has screwed up. (I want to screw up my oun dog) lol but I want the whole litter. This is why I want a "extreme female" it is a starting point and go from there. One example I can think of is in my cattle dog program. Stock dogs have the same problem as all other working breeds, too many "just pets" and not enough good working dogs. I have some real nice dogs that produce some real nice dogs and some real soft dogs and crap as well. But I have a female that is too hard. Too aggressive, too much bite, does not go out of drive well at all. Way to hard on cattle and would kill goats and sheep. But in theory (and it is all theory) she will bring more of these things back into the gene pool. Will I get culls? Yes but I already get culls so my theory is to step it up with more hardness and aggression. Time will tell.
The test of the dog is the show but the test of the blood line is time.
by gsdstudent on 02 February 2014 - 00:02
The best working line breeders; They are involved deeply in the working of the breed. They have connections to get their dogs into the right hands to turn them into something others can appreciate. The cull the less-than offsprings by finding them pet homes. They limit the less-than off spring by going to the right pairs for breeding. If you breed the most aggressive to the most aggressive you might see a weakening of the offspring's nerve base. I have witnessed this when too narrow of requirements are used for breeding. I challange you to really look at some of the ''pillar'' males in Pirry blood lines. They were the top producing sport dogs. Some times the word ''hard'' means ''difficult'' to train.
by Border11 on 02 February 2014 - 01:02
Hi Paul,
Sounds like a good game plan! good luck with it and tell me when and where? you find that "extreme female"!! , I like your thinking
and agree with your posts here. What I believe is that some folks haven't had the privilege to own a dog like this and Hence don't
fully understand or may not want too, and that's fine this type of dog is not for everyone.
I'll tell you one thing they don't mess around my place,
It can be hard to put into words what the type is exactly, but its getting harder and harder to find this
especially in Female Gsd's. I have been their and theirs nothing like it once you had a dog like this :-)
I was telling Jenni78 before that I have coined a new Phrase for this type of GSD................"Garrison GSD's"
I'm hoping you like the phrase , and then make me proud and Breed a few that make them twitch when they pass your place!!
Be well and Be Good
Border11
Sounds like a good game plan! good luck with it and tell me when and where? you find that "extreme female"!! , I like your thinking
and agree with your posts here. What I believe is that some folks haven't had the privilege to own a dog like this and Hence don't
fully understand or may not want too, and that's fine this type of dog is not for everyone.
I'll tell you one thing they don't mess around my place,
It can be hard to put into words what the type is exactly, but its getting harder and harder to find this
especially in Female Gsd's. I have been their and theirs nothing like it once you had a dog like this :-)
I was telling Jenni78 before that I have coined a new Phrase for this type of GSD................"Garrison GSD's"
I'm hoping you like the phrase , and then make me proud and Breed a few that make them twitch when they pass your place!!
Be well and Be Good
Border11
by Paul Garrison on 02 February 2014 - 07:02
gsdstudent
Thank you for your concern, and I am sorry but it just takes too much time to go into all of in's and outs of what I require for breeding dogs. It is also impossible to see the what, why and how of what I do, so that makes it very difficult to not think one way or the other in just a few posts. I been raising and training dogs since the early 70's It is also impossible for me to please many people with what I do. My goal is to give very little information about my breeding program in protection dogs or stock dogs, because of differing opinions on how things are to be done, and the bad mouthing that comes after one does.
It is easy to ask the question "who are the best working line breeders" and impossible to answer without more questions, like what is a "working dog". It would be much easier if the question was "who has produced the most Sch titled dogs, or who has produced the most LE dogs and so on and so on.
As with any breeding program "what is best" is all opinion and opinions are like butt holes we all have them and they all smell.
Border11 I am not sure how to respond, but thank you and safe training.
Thank you for your concern, and I am sorry but it just takes too much time to go into all of in's and outs of what I require for breeding dogs. It is also impossible to see the what, why and how of what I do, so that makes it very difficult to not think one way or the other in just a few posts. I been raising and training dogs since the early 70's It is also impossible for me to please many people with what I do. My goal is to give very little information about my breeding program in protection dogs or stock dogs, because of differing opinions on how things are to be done, and the bad mouthing that comes after one does.
It is easy to ask the question "who are the best working line breeders" and impossible to answer without more questions, like what is a "working dog". It would be much easier if the question was "who has produced the most Sch titled dogs, or who has produced the most LE dogs and so on and so on.
As with any breeding program "what is best" is all opinion and opinions are like butt holes we all have them and they all smell.
Border11 I am not sure how to respond, but thank you and safe training.
by Xeph on 02 February 2014 - 09:02
Hard to say who the best working breeders are, I think. There are more kinds of work than just jobs that involve biting....
The kind of dog Paul wants is great for protection, but it's crappy for service work. I personally do not need a "super social" dog. I prefer a dog that is aloof, but socially open. A dog that will not make overtures for friendship with strangers, but also won't nail a child (or dumb adult) if they are rushed and hugged (it's happened....more than once).
The kind of dog Paul wants is great for protection, but it's crappy for service work. I personally do not need a "super social" dog. I prefer a dog that is aloof, but socially open. A dog that will not make overtures for friendship with strangers, but also won't nail a child (or dumb adult) if they are rushed and hugged (it's happened....more than once).
by Smiley on 02 February 2014 - 16:02
Paul,
Thank you for the conversation. I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Of course, you are free to do as you please!! But, what are you going to do with all these puppies you produce who are "extreme"? Where will they end up? I read all the time of breeders constantly getting puppies back and that is just for active or obnoxious behavior versus serious aggression! I want to wish you luck but I just can't!! But, you do not have to explain yourself to anyone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I appreciate the constructive conversation you have partaken in and your willingness to hold your opinion without attacking. More conversations on this forum should be the same!! But, I do truly applaud your willingness to share your views in the manner you did -clearly stating your opinion and providing explanation. It is very much appreciated. However, on this topic......We will have to agree to disagree!!
Thank you for the conversation. I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Of course, you are free to do as you please!! But, what are you going to do with all these puppies you produce who are "extreme"? Where will they end up? I read all the time of breeders constantly getting puppies back and that is just for active or obnoxious behavior versus serious aggression! I want to wish you luck but I just can't!! But, you do not have to explain yourself to anyone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I appreciate the constructive conversation you have partaken in and your willingness to hold your opinion without attacking. More conversations on this forum should be the same!! But, I do truly applaud your willingness to share your views in the manner you did -clearly stating your opinion and providing explanation. It is very much appreciated. However, on this topic......We will have to agree to disagree!!
by Paul Garrison on 02 February 2014 - 18:02
Smiley,
The chances that I would produce more dogs that would be extreme then I can use is almost impossible and there are capable people within my group of dog people as well. But as stated before I am not looking to start a extreme gene pool. My goal is to add hardness and a civil edge to dogs for me and others who need that, if it goes that far. But in all reality I want to bred my oun dogs the way I like them.
You asked what am I going to do with all of these puppies that are extreme? Nothing.... there will not be many. When you breed you have a whole gene pool the is reflected. If you breed two extreme or two VA dogs together you will not get a littler of man eaters nor would you get a litter of VA puppies. Breeding for what you want is not that easy and as far as what do you do with extras or culls, that just depend on what you believe you should and are willing to do.
If you have the understanding I am looking for a kennel full of man eaters you are incorrect. I am looking for 1 extreme female to add hadrness and aggression to dogs of like mindness and needs.
I have sold two puppies in 30 years. I have sold a lot of green and trained dogs but best of luck buying a puppy from me or the breeders I work with.
For all of those who think hard, civil, aggressive dogs are unnecessary, all it takes is one rape or one real beating and you WILL change your mind. I have seen it over and over. What is the worth of your safety.
For all of those who have dogs that think it will protect you do a home invasion and test that dog and I mean really test him or her. Most will be disapointed. Most of these man stopping walk on water sport dogs of today can be killed with Swiss Army knife and a tennis ball. (I believe Slam said that). There is nothing wrong with these dogs just know what your dog is and what you want and need. I have met and spent time with several women who have been raped, they are never the same and most end in divorce. It is awful for them and breaks my heart. I have had my home robbed years ago and it changed me, and the way I live my life.
The chances that I would produce more dogs that would be extreme then I can use is almost impossible and there are capable people within my group of dog people as well. But as stated before I am not looking to start a extreme gene pool. My goal is to add hardness and a civil edge to dogs for me and others who need that, if it goes that far. But in all reality I want to bred my oun dogs the way I like them.
You asked what am I going to do with all of these puppies that are extreme? Nothing.... there will not be many. When you breed you have a whole gene pool the is reflected. If you breed two extreme or two VA dogs together you will not get a littler of man eaters nor would you get a litter of VA puppies. Breeding for what you want is not that easy and as far as what do you do with extras or culls, that just depend on what you believe you should and are willing to do.
If you have the understanding I am looking for a kennel full of man eaters you are incorrect. I am looking for 1 extreme female to add hadrness and aggression to dogs of like mindness and needs.
I have sold two puppies in 30 years. I have sold a lot of green and trained dogs but best of luck buying a puppy from me or the breeders I work with.
For all of those who think hard, civil, aggressive dogs are unnecessary, all it takes is one rape or one real beating and you WILL change your mind. I have seen it over and over. What is the worth of your safety.
For all of those who have dogs that think it will protect you do a home invasion and test that dog and I mean really test him or her. Most will be disapointed. Most of these man stopping walk on water sport dogs of today can be killed with Swiss Army knife and a tennis ball. (I believe Slam said that). There is nothing wrong with these dogs just know what your dog is and what you want and need. I have met and spent time with several women who have been raped, they are never the same and most end in divorce. It is awful for them and breaks my heart. I have had my home robbed years ago and it changed me, and the way I live my life.
by Gigante on 02 February 2014 - 18:02
Xeph,
Nail.. head.
If you post a question best working line breeders, then skew it with your personal preference, you have the best workingline kennel according to : Not the best working line kennel. Is it possible to really narrow it down to the best any ways. I think not within this breed. Poodles peice of cake. I want a strong hard dog, you want a socially open dog, OP wants a workingline dog that has a great chance of success in sport activities, law enforcement wants a social dog that will bite when told, the seeing eye dog breeder wants.... you get the point. No other breed has this problem.
The best working line breeders for me can produce dogs on any given sunday, & fill those from one/two litters. Let that list begin.
For me placement of strong dogs is directed related to labradorization of the shepherd in my opinion, as smily notes above. These board are full of people who thought they wanted a gsd, but wanted a lab in big boned sable's body. You have to weed these people out and that makes it harder for the people who want to produce strong dogs but dont have the name yet to eaisly place them. I wish people like Paul G and people like Smiley the best of luck in each of their ideals. Its easy to find a social shepherd throw a rock in any direction, not so easy to find one of the harder tougher nature. If you argue against the extreme of defense, then how fare is it you should argue for the most part, for the lack thereof.
Nail.. head.
If you post a question best working line breeders, then skew it with your personal preference, you have the best workingline kennel according to : Not the best working line kennel. Is it possible to really narrow it down to the best any ways. I think not within this breed. Poodles peice of cake. I want a strong hard dog, you want a socially open dog, OP wants a workingline dog that has a great chance of success in sport activities, law enforcement wants a social dog that will bite when told, the seeing eye dog breeder wants.... you get the point. No other breed has this problem.
The best working line breeders for me can produce dogs on any given sunday, & fill those from one/two litters. Let that list begin.
For me placement of strong dogs is directed related to labradorization of the shepherd in my opinion, as smily notes above. These board are full of people who thought they wanted a gsd, but wanted a lab in big boned sable's body. You have to weed these people out and that makes it harder for the people who want to produce strong dogs but dont have the name yet to eaisly place them. I wish people like Paul G and people like Smiley the best of luck in each of their ideals. Its easy to find a social shepherd throw a rock in any direction, not so easy to find one of the harder tougher nature. If you argue against the extreme of defense, then how fare is it you should argue for the most part, for the lack thereof.
by isachev on 02 February 2014 - 22:02
Geistwasser! For that old school type.
by NA7 on 03 February 2014 - 05:02
Paul,
I agree with you. Once you experience a tragedy as you fore mentioned your ideas of protection change and a real protection dog is worth its weight in gold.
I agree with you. Once you experience a tragedy as you fore mentioned your ideas of protection change and a real protection dog is worth its weight in gold.
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