Any AKC Breed Champions with SchH Titles? - Page 5

Cheers Blitz, Just noted you extending hand of friendship to lady Wild above - grinning ear to ear - best moment today yet! Two points Blitz - I've got photographs of Lance of Fran-Jo, even though I never realised its influence on US scene. I don't want to state mine but, what is your view of that style of animal? And, under other topics, some very valid points were made about roach, and various anatomical reasons for its necessity, although I do think at times it verges excessively toward hyena-backed. Yet, above you seem to discount need for any healthy roach altogether? I mean, very fact that animal has good, high withers will right there by itself lead to a certain degree of it. Nice to see you here - where's King?

I never saw Lance in person, he was before my time. But like some of his counterparts in German, Canto and Quanto, he is blamed for everything that can and did go wrong with the American GSD. He himself did have Pano but he got it from somewhere...it was here before he had it. He's blamed for HD,over anglulation, bitchy heads, bad color,missing teeth(was missing one, off colors, fading pigments, whites, etc etc etc. Want to read someone ranting over the edge on Lance, read Fred Lanting. Lance, from what I understand, was a big light colored dog that moved fairly well and was of excellent character. A truly charasmatic dog. He crossed very well with Bernd Von Kallengraten lines. Like every other stud dog that produces he was overused. I believe he had like 700 breedings. so it is virtually impossable to get an AM bred dog that does not go back to him. He was a grandson of a German Sieger and his mother was Seiger Granddaughter. He was very similar to Troll As far as the Roach. high withers do not cause the roach. Most of the dog's roaches are actually behind the wither making the wither lower than the back. While the roached dog will continue to be somewhat functional it really restricts movement by causing the dogs to run downhill. One must be very careful in the quest of high withers. It cannot come at the expense of correct shoulder layback. In American dogs, the blades are rarely layed back correctly and the withers are high. That is actually how the extreme sloping toplines came into being. They wanted high withers, so they opened the shoulder assembly up, causing the dogs feet to now be under his ears. But he now holds a sloping topline on the move always looking like he is running uphill. The Germans seemed to have turned their shoulder aasemblies making the necks come out low and the forelegs comeout somewhere near the midline, causing the shoulder to open into the ground. Combine the restricted reach with the powerful rear drive the dogs now will overrun their fronts as there is no place for the rear drive to go. The back roaches up and the dog apears to be running downhill. Neither are correct nor called for in either standard.

Phew Firethorn! I asked the question and, did you give me food for thought! I'd never looked Lance up on this site, because I never thought he'd be there - guess what? Also, ruddy good thing I did: my opening comment was going to be that there'd be very few Show dogs without Canto or Quanto - and here we are: surprises will not cease today! One obvious question: Pedigree in data base only shows two generations between him and the great Axel: I know its quite possible time-wise but, a bit unusual nevertheless - is that the accepted pedigree? Colouring doesn't look that weak in photograph shown. I'd better come out with it, and it's also what I most remember from pics I looked at couple of years ago. I also didn't want to say this to Blitz. Simply, the whole forehand - forward of the shoulder blades, that is - is to me totally wrong! There, I've said it. It's what I've always referred to as the English Show Style. It's the high-stepping, neck/head high conformation. For me completely incorrect, out of balance ans harmony - belongs to a different Breed: there, you can't divide the animal up into the proper equel-sized lenght-wise proportions for fore, middle and hind hands. Neck should be far less erect, more forward. I'm not going to say anymore: I'll have half the US on top of me! I didn't mean to infer that high withers caused roach as such - rather that it aided in giving some imitation thereof. I may as well go the full hog, firethorn, I can't really accept your remarks to do with roach in general(and I'm one that actually hates to see it in any extreme form): There just seem to be too many anatomical justifications for it. I also feel you're somewhat overstating this business of roach causing overrun. But hey, viva le differance, eh? Thank you for input: certainly gave me insight into US animal - and got those brain cells working! Final comment: apart from what's said, I don't mind the rest of him at all. But, if he were given to me today, I'd keep him well away from my bitches

Hi Patrishap, I'm learning about shoulder layback in this breed, so don't yet have a good understanding of what is correct. Malamutes are draft dogs and must have moderate layback and a shorter upper arm, so that's what I know. At this talk about high withers and long upper arms is pretty much a foreign language to me. I do know that the SV standard as revised in 1997 calls for a straight back and I've read it over a dozen times and cannot find any justification for a roach/arch/boomerang whatever. I can probably figure out how the dogs came by those backs, but I don't think I'll share my thoughts on that one LOL. Being an AKC person and only seeing such toplines on coarsing hounds, seeing it on a GSD just offends my sense of canine anatomy. Plus, it's just plain ugly and makes the dog look as if it's in pain LOL. I think every Am line GSD eventually goes back to the same imports behind te SV dogs, don't they? I don't think they were whelped here in the US in a cabbage patch LOL. I used to show at AKC shows under Helen Miller Fisher and Ernie Loeb, I think they were some of the breeders who import the foundation stock from Germany to the US. Others on this board will know the breed history better than I. I don't know if Lance's popularity as a stud dog harmed or helped the breed. The overuse of any dog isn't usually a positive thing.

Hi Blitz and Firethorn, Blitz, allow me to throw in some opinions - High withers allow proper, strong binding together of muscle across spine - anatomically desirable as it ties shoulder blades together - ie strenght in that area. I know studs, including imports with low or level withers, but it's really not something to aim for. Good lenght in fore legs is similarly a desirable anatomical feature - if only to offset great power generated by hind quarters and prevent 'diving' and overrun as noted by Firethorn. Many dogs now also strike me as disproportionate insofar chest is too deep in relation to lenght of legs. A reasonable degree of roaching also brings numerous anatomical benefits and as explained in great detail by DH, Silbersee and ecs under Fore-Assembly topic. In fact, a certain amount of roaching, blending naturally into gently shaped croup, is probably essential for good all-round performance. When it runs into excess I too cringe, and think animal must be in pain! You know, when poor critter literally does start to look hyena-backed! You mention Standard, Blitz. I've thought for long time now that it much like the bible and religion: it can be twisted, distorted and interpreted so variously and subjectively that much of original intent is lost. And, to top it off, you have different countries with their own versions and interpretations, if not the catering to local vested interests. Important judges own or are affiliated with big commercial Kennels and ...? No, I've played that theme to death! Blitz, you say that every AM dog must have had German forerunner - can't dispute that! Also, please keep in mind that I have no knowledge of AM animal whatsoever, and I haven't had so far had slightest interest in this business of US Shepherd being a different version of the German one but, like to pose following two related questions (undoubtedly at risk of being annihilated subsequently!) I've said above how to me the Lance style - erect neck and head - is, to me, completely out of what whack with what this animal is supposed to present - it really belongs to other Breeds altogether. The question: How predominant is this style or look in the US? And two: How did it come about, or whoever decided in the first place that that this was a proper or desirable conformation/anatomy for a Shepherd? And that Lance was consequently to be classed as a great champion for that matter? If presented now, would he receive same acceptance? Regards.

Blitz and Firethorn, Remember me saying that Lance's style reminded me of what I class as the old English Show Style? I thought I'd have a better look at pedigree of Lance, and guess what, there's your English connection: Fortune of Arbywood and then back to Frigga of Silver Lane. This is where erect nature of fore assembly comes from. The jump from stalward Axel to Lance in two generations still strikes me as slightly unusual, and well back there are entries missing on dam side. Is pedigree in data base accepted as correct?

HEY BLITZEN OR JOE, STOP TELLING THESE PEOPLE YOUR A WOMEN THEY SEND ME EMAILS THAT YOU ARE WELL MAYBE IN A WAY YOU MIGHT BE FOR DIVORCED TWICE MIGHT SAY SO. I NEVER LEFT A BITCH FOR U TO WHELP PUPS ARE U DRUNK AGAIN? YOU TOLD ME YOUR A ACHOLOLIC AND FROM A KID AT THAT FROM YOUR DAD WORKING AT SCHENELEY, pA. U NEVER WHELPED A LITTER TO SELL FOR ME AND LANCASTER, ARE U STONED AGAIN? MY DOGS HIPS ARE REGISTERED OFA A NORMAL BUT OTHELLO IS A FAST NORMAL, SO DO NOT PUT DOWN A BITCH I WOULD NEVER LEAVE WITH YOU AND YOUR HOLE OF A PLACE. YES, MY NIECE DID AND U TOOK HER BIG TIME AND MADE MONEY OFF HER AS U USUALLY DO PLUS THE PUPPY U LEFT HARRY TAKE. HE WILL WHIP YOUR ASS QUITE QUICKLY AND U HAD BETTER WATCH YOUR BACK SIDE FROM THREADS READ ON HERE. YOUR A TOTALLY FOOL TRYING TO MAKE THESE PEOPLE FEEL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT WHEN MOST LIKELY QUOATING FROM ONE OF YOUR PRISON BOOKS, LOL. GET A LIFE JOE AND STOP THE DISGUISE AND YES SERSIE MY NIECE U TOOK WILL STOP FOR HER PAPERS FOR HER LITTER, NOT MINE MY DOGS NEVER LEAVE HER TO YOUR HOLE OF A PLACE, SO STOP MAKING THREADS OF LIES HERE. ALL KNOW I WHELP MY OWN PUPS AND DO NOT NEED U FOR A DIME OR PENNY FOR THAT MATTER. U TALK TO SERSIE FOR HER ATTORNEY WILL SURE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU. SHE IS SICK OF U TAKING HER SO NOW SHE HAS ME FOR PROPER GUIDANCE OF GOOD DOGS, NOT JUNK OF HALF BREEDS LIKE YOURS

Hey Wild, Blitzen and I have a date this weekend because I want one of her great pups. Please don't ruin it for me. I am going to see the whole litter and have pick male. He is supposedly a knock your socks off puppy! Blitzen says he was born with a bumbell in his mouth and retrieves already at 5 weeks. Great drive and he should be able to do protection work in a month. Says he is doing the cutest hold-an-bark for a 5 week old pup. I am so excited and you keep knocking Blitzen. Can your pups do this already? Blitzen says the next litter will be born with sleeves in their mouths. Wow! So, you all better sign up today! Blitzen works together with a German friend who has given lots of tips on breeding. I am looking forward to my Zulu von Blitzen already! Watch out for us at the next BSP and BHZS! Blitzen is the best!

Dear, precious Wildthing, Blitzen would like you to come over on Christmas Day, and sing carols around the tree with the family. Hi Sunny, Didn't think you had it in you! Now you're getting into the swing of things!

Dear, precious Wildthing, Blitzen would like you to come over on Christmas Day, and sing carols around the tree with the family. Hi Sunny, Didn't think you had it in you! Now you're getting into the swing of things!