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by Prager on 07 June 2010 - 23:06
Oh I missed the 17 year old part. Well she too should be involved in the training of the dog.
Now I have not seen the dog or the family. It may be total missmatch.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Now I have not seen the dog or the family. It may be total missmatch.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by NoCurs on 07 June 2010 - 23:06
Well, as you see, there are lots of different opinions! : )
I worked animal control for 20 years and I can tell you one thing:
There are those who excuse real bites within the family
and
those who do not make excuses or blame themselves
but ALL generally end up doing what they should have done in the first place after the NEXT bite...
If you are one of those who believes a family dog should be excused for biting if someone pushes his rear, or didn't beat the crap out of him and make him afraid when he was young (so you had "control") or some other nonsense, well, keep him and just hope he and your daughter dont cross paths again.
But, they will.
I worked animal control for 20 years and I can tell you one thing:
There are those who excuse real bites within the family
and
those who do not make excuses or blame themselves
but ALL generally end up doing what they should have done in the first place after the NEXT bite...
If you are one of those who believes a family dog should be excused for biting if someone pushes his rear, or didn't beat the crap out of him and make him afraid when he was young (so you had "control") or some other nonsense, well, keep him and just hope he and your daughter dont cross paths again.
But, they will.
by Prager on 08 June 2010 - 00:06
NoCurs,
I believe that it is everybody's decision. You as an animal control have seen one end of the spectrum , and I as a dog trainer have seen the other end....recovery of a bad dog.
Just about any dog can be fixed.The problem is that any dog is a product of it's genetics and environment he/she is in. I have found that any behavioral problem is a result of a misfit of owner's social and cultural make up which did not fit with the dog's genetics.
The people who hire me as a trainer have a problem with such dog but the biggest problem for me is to change owner's social and cultural make up. If they are willing and most importantly able to do so, then we have success. However I would say that about 90% of people are not able or willing to do that.
That is the honest truth.
I am sorry to say.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
I believe that it is everybody's decision. You as an animal control have seen one end of the spectrum , and I as a dog trainer have seen the other end....recovery of a bad dog.
Just about any dog can be fixed.The problem is that any dog is a product of it's genetics and environment he/she is in. I have found that any behavioral problem is a result of a misfit of owner's social and cultural make up which did not fit with the dog's genetics.
The people who hire me as a trainer have a problem with such dog but the biggest problem for me is to change owner's social and cultural make up. If they are willing and most importantly able to do so, then we have success. However I would say that about 90% of people are not able or willing to do that.
That is the honest truth.
I am sorry to say.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 08 June 2010 - 00:06
Because of what I have said above it is paramount for people to PROPERLY train their dog and properly socialize their dog. You must use Positive and Negative reinforcement methods. Touchy feely Petsmart type training may work on a nice dogie. The dog is pack oriented animal and as such must have a leader or it will turn into one. And from there goes all the problems. Let me stress that both positive an negative reinforcement must be used and will lead to establishment of proper relationship between the owner and the dog. Consistency, persistence, knowledge and repetition and discipline are all necessary ingrediances of training. If you are not going to train a dog or you know that you will be missing on any of the 5 points above then do not get a dog.
Prager Hans
Http://www.alpinek9.com
Prager Hans
Http://www.alpinek9.com
by Two Moons on 08 June 2010 - 02:06
What we have here is a failure to communication ...........lol
Moons.
Moons.
by yoshy on 08 June 2010 - 02:06
99% of all behavioral issues can be solved through proper obedience training. 99% of behavioral issues are handler or enviroment created. The dog may have the genetic pre-disposition to have an issue or issues however almost all can be overcome or managed through proper training.
it baffles me how many opted to end this dogs life so quickly. especially with second hand knowledge.
It also is beyond me why several people said this dog bites for no reason- Dogs simply do not bite "for no reason". they may not be apparent to the handler or owner because of reasons such as distracted-didn't receive whole story- of simply ignorance of k9 behavior. Something has to trigger or motivate a bite whether its based on fear, dominance, territoriality,protectiveness, barrier frustration, handler aggression, re-directed aggression,resource gaurding etc...way on down the line.... their is ALWAYS an underlying/motivated reason. In which once the motivator is found it is simply a matter of correcting the behavior in an appropriate fashion.
The family and dog most likely simply need training to understand there dog and the dog to understand them and formulate a working relationship.
Now to bring up another point here- has the dog had a regular check up lately? I have seen dogs with Lyme's, lesions on brain, etc.... start to show unforeseen signs of aggression as well....
Either way- this is and issue that needs to be addressed immediately for the safety of your family and the dog! You should do some research and find a suitable trainer quickly with a proven track record in behavior modification. check some reference- observe a class or demo and enroll your family and dog ASAP.
I would also like to add that- you have the law of intermittant reinforcement. If you are unble to efficiently supervise the dog it should be confined.Since he wasnt corrected for his inapproiate actions he will likely try it again. You need to prepare yourself to deal with it quickly and efficiently to releive any desire he may have of continueing to practice the bahavior. In a case like this i would most definitely advice starting the training cycle over with entire family- make your dog regain your trust- re-establish a working order and structure in the home- and make sure you feel he and your family are 100% trustworthy before you entitle him to free rain of your home again!
it baffles me how many opted to end this dogs life so quickly. especially with second hand knowledge.
It also is beyond me why several people said this dog bites for no reason- Dogs simply do not bite "for no reason". they may not be apparent to the handler or owner because of reasons such as distracted-didn't receive whole story- of simply ignorance of k9 behavior. Something has to trigger or motivate a bite whether its based on fear, dominance, territoriality,protectiveness, barrier frustration, handler aggression, re-directed aggression,resource gaurding etc...way on down the line.... their is ALWAYS an underlying/motivated reason. In which once the motivator is found it is simply a matter of correcting the behavior in an appropriate fashion.
The family and dog most likely simply need training to understand there dog and the dog to understand them and formulate a working relationship.
Now to bring up another point here- has the dog had a regular check up lately? I have seen dogs with Lyme's, lesions on brain, etc.... start to show unforeseen signs of aggression as well....
Either way- this is and issue that needs to be addressed immediately for the safety of your family and the dog! You should do some research and find a suitable trainer quickly with a proven track record in behavior modification. check some reference- observe a class or demo and enroll your family and dog ASAP.
I would also like to add that- you have the law of intermittant reinforcement. If you are unble to efficiently supervise the dog it should be confined.Since he wasnt corrected for his inapproiate actions he will likely try it again. You need to prepare yourself to deal with it quickly and efficiently to releive any desire he may have of continueing to practice the bahavior. In a case like this i would most definitely advice starting the training cycle over with entire family- make your dog regain your trust- re-establish a working order and structure in the home- and make sure you feel he and your family are 100% trustworthy before you entitle him to free rain of your home again!
by Two Moons on 08 June 2010 - 03:06
How do you regain trust?
Do you test the dog, pull it's tail, what?
Long story short, the dog bit a member of it's household, it's family.
Some dogs bite, yeah for no apparent reason other than a knowledge that they can.
Those are the ones who should not be pets.
Once trust is lost only a fool would forget whats possible.
So............... who's willing to take that responsibility ?
Do you test the dog, pull it's tail, what?
Long story short, the dog bit a member of it's household, it's family.
Some dogs bite, yeah for no apparent reason other than a knowledge that they can.
Those are the ones who should not be pets.
Once trust is lost only a fool would forget whats possible.
So............... who's willing to take that responsibility ?
by VomMarischal on 08 June 2010 - 03:06
Yoshy, great post.
by Two Moons on 08 June 2010 - 03:06
Yeah great post,
except the moment for that proper training came and went.
btw,
I never really mentioned how some people need the training as much as the dogs.
No matter where blame lays or cause is found, a line was crossed.
except the moment for that proper training came and went.
btw,
I never really mentioned how some people need the training as much as the dogs.
No matter where blame lays or cause is found, a line was crossed.
by hexe on 08 June 2010 - 04:06
Bhaugh wrote:
"The fact that he got away with biting her (because you threw him outside and didnt beat the shit out of him right then) makes the situation worse."
Yah, sure, that was the solution--"beat the shit out of him". Because a dog that clearly doesn't feel he's not the one in charge would have tolerated the OP using physical violence and offered up a submissive gesture to her.
Not. Bloody. Likely. Instead of just posting about the daughter's bites, the OP would probably be posting about her own wounds as well.
Prager's covered the training needs about as well as anyone could want. A complete veterinary work-up IS needed, as well: you need to have the vet check for, and rule out, Lyme and other tick-borne diseases (sub-clinical cases of these, especially Lyme, can result in aberrant behavior with an high percentage showing unexpected and unwarranted aggression) as well as verify that all organ functions are normal. Hips should be checked as well, as has been explained earlier. Once you've eliminated all possibility that the behavior is the result of any medical condition, you MUST commit yourself to training the dog correctly, as Prager has described, or the dog will have to be removed from your home in one way or another. In the meantime, familiarize yourself with the "Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF)" protocol, and live it as if your life depended on it (your daughter's safety does, and your dog's life very well may)--if you Google 'NILIF', you'll find dozens of links, but here's one to start you off: k9deb.com/nilif.htm
"The fact that he got away with biting her (because you threw him outside and didnt beat the shit out of him right then) makes the situation worse."
Yah, sure, that was the solution--"beat the shit out of him". Because a dog that clearly doesn't feel he's not the one in charge would have tolerated the OP using physical violence and offered up a submissive gesture to her.
Not. Bloody. Likely. Instead of just posting about the daughter's bites, the OP would probably be posting about her own wounds as well.
Prager's covered the training needs about as well as anyone could want. A complete veterinary work-up IS needed, as well: you need to have the vet check for, and rule out, Lyme and other tick-borne diseases (sub-clinical cases of these, especially Lyme, can result in aberrant behavior with an high percentage showing unexpected and unwarranted aggression) as well as verify that all organ functions are normal. Hips should be checked as well, as has been explained earlier. Once you've eliminated all possibility that the behavior is the result of any medical condition, you MUST commit yourself to training the dog correctly, as Prager has described, or the dog will have to be removed from your home in one way or another. In the meantime, familiarize yourself with the "Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF)" protocol, and live it as if your life depended on it (your daughter's safety does, and your dog's life very well may)--if you Google 'NILIF', you'll find dozens of links, but here's one to start you off: k9deb.com/nilif.htm
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