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by Puputz on 19 May 2009 - 22:05
I think it is detrimental to *always* use a ball especially with a very drivey dog. It is wonderful in creating a very good work attitude in the dog early on in puppyhood and the first year or so, but I've found that relying on it completely will create a false image of the bond you have with your dog. A lot of dogs will obey just anyone with a ball. Will he obey you without the thought or the promise of a reward? Or will he obey even after he's gotten the reward (can he do an entire obedience routine with a ball in his mouth)? Can he follow orders in the presence of a motionless ball, do obedience for half an hour, while maintaining drive towards the ball that is still ever in the back of his mind?
Not relying on the ball as a reward alone can tell you heaps about your dog, his drive levels, and what you need to work on. With mature dogs, for me, it becomes less of a toy and more of a 'prey'. Too bad you can't put sheep on a string. :)
Not relying on the ball as a reward alone can tell you heaps about your dog, his drive levels, and what you need to work on. With mature dogs, for me, it becomes less of a toy and more of a 'prey'. Too bad you can't put sheep on a string. :)
by jc.carroll on 20 May 2009 - 20:05
I find the ball can make a wonderful reward for a dog; a great bridge between work and play.
It's my observation that ball-drive and prey drive are two different things.
I have one dog who goes absolutely ape over balls; but he's only lukewarm for other toys. As for chasing things like squirrels, birds, anything "prey-ish" like that he is utterly disinterested. A small, furry critter can run through his yard, and he won't even get up. The same can't be said if a ball rolls through his yard. He's on it in a heartbeat. I use a few rounds with the ball at the end of each training session; it's his ultimate reward. He will do pretty much anything to get at the ball.
It's my observation that ball-drive and prey drive are two different things.
I have one dog who goes absolutely ape over balls; but he's only lukewarm for other toys. As for chasing things like squirrels, birds, anything "prey-ish" like that he is utterly disinterested. A small, furry critter can run through his yard, and he won't even get up. The same can't be said if a ball rolls through his yard. He's on it in a heartbeat. I use a few rounds with the ball at the end of each training session; it's his ultimate reward. He will do pretty much anything to get at the ball.
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 20 May 2009 - 23:05
How much time do you spend playing with your dog. (with toys) - 2 hours, every day.
When your done do you take the toys away? - Yes. Otherwise, he' amuse himsef with them without me, whihc is not good.
When I first posted here that my dog is in my face every time I walked out the door with her ball. I was accused by some posters here of neglecting my dog. - No, you are not neglecting your dog. Rather, he sees you as his own amusement device, not a leader he shoud look up to and respect. When you step out, he is right there in your face wanting to play and nudging you, kind of hanging around, arguing his case wth a toy in his mouth and pestering you. it is a taught behavior - you taught him that.
Ive been reading Guard Dog Traaining by Willian Koehler and on page 65 he very clearly states "Above all do not play ball with your pup, nor permit anyone else to do so. Ball-playing generally grows into an obsession that can ruin a dog for protection work." - There is a smidge of truth to that, but overall, it is generally not true. The key is rather for your dog to understand what quality time with you is and when it's time to put it away in the locker when the game is over.
I have that and some other William Koehler book you mentioned and I have read them. On some topics, his advice and methods are useful and valuable, on some he fails miserably and his methods are the caveman's approach to riding a rocket - outdated, inefficient or plain out wrong. His method on poison proofing is valuable and could work, same with charging a fence and instigating or trying to fight other dogs. His other methods (the way he wants them to use it) are too brutal. If toned down a lot, some other of his methods could work on some dogs and bring some positive results, but overal his methods and books are just too much nowadays.
Now Im not trying to train my dog for anything, but my point is that this dog is completly obsessed with her toys, and has nothing to do with her being neglected. - The dog shooud be obsessed with YOU playing with HIM using YOUR toys.
Ive often wondered if I should take them away from her except at plat time. - Yes, you shoud take them away, otherwise, the first thing the dog does when you step out to her is grab a favorite toy int he mouth and shove it to you bugging you to play. After a few go aways, leave me alones and scrams, you wil relent and play. Bam, the dog just learned what you didn't want him to learn.
When your done do you take the toys away? - Yes. Otherwise, he' amuse himsef with them without me, whihc is not good.
When I first posted here that my dog is in my face every time I walked out the door with her ball. I was accused by some posters here of neglecting my dog. - No, you are not neglecting your dog. Rather, he sees you as his own amusement device, not a leader he shoud look up to and respect. When you step out, he is right there in your face wanting to play and nudging you, kind of hanging around, arguing his case wth a toy in his mouth and pestering you. it is a taught behavior - you taught him that.
Ive been reading Guard Dog Traaining by Willian Koehler and on page 65 he very clearly states "Above all do not play ball with your pup, nor permit anyone else to do so. Ball-playing generally grows into an obsession that can ruin a dog for protection work." - There is a smidge of truth to that, but overall, it is generally not true. The key is rather for your dog to understand what quality time with you is and when it's time to put it away in the locker when the game is over.
I have that and some other William Koehler book you mentioned and I have read them. On some topics, his advice and methods are useful and valuable, on some he fails miserably and his methods are the caveman's approach to riding a rocket - outdated, inefficient or plain out wrong. His method on poison proofing is valuable and could work, same with charging a fence and instigating or trying to fight other dogs. His other methods (the way he wants them to use it) are too brutal. If toned down a lot, some other of his methods could work on some dogs and bring some positive results, but overal his methods and books are just too much nowadays.
Now Im not trying to train my dog for anything, but my point is that this dog is completly obsessed with her toys, and has nothing to do with her being neglected. - The dog shooud be obsessed with YOU playing with HIM using YOUR toys.
Ive often wondered if I should take them away from her except at plat time. - Yes, you shoud take them away, otherwise, the first thing the dog does when you step out to her is grab a favorite toy int he mouth and shove it to you bugging you to play. After a few go aways, leave me alones and scrams, you wil relent and play. Bam, the dog just learned what you didn't want him to learn.
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