Sport long bite vs working application of the long bite - Page 1

In the interest of hopefully some interesting discussion of the difference between what we want on the sport field and what is wanted in a real world application I pose the following.

My male has always had an impressive courage bite.   He goes fast, launches, hits hard and it is quite impressive to see on video and to be 'behind' on the field so to speak.

Recently, in talking with a couple of top class helpers who have had reason to work him, they raised the concern that he brings all that power, speed and intensity straight into the man's body.  So he tries to plow through the helper.  It is my understanding that this is not desired on the sport field because it makes him difficult to catch safely and thus it is risky for him to come this way.   It was suggested that we work on getting him out of this method of coming on the long bite, which I can see the wisdom of as I'd never wish to see my dog hurt!

When I learn something in Schutzhund about training vs genetics I tend to ponder on it and that's lead me to making this post.   My understanding has always been that a dog's long bite technique (ie speed, launching, targeting) has a strong genetic component, rather like his grips. Thus you can train to improve to a certain extent but you're going to be working with or against, genetics.  

Which lead me to thinking about the difference between what we want to see in the sport vs real life because I would think (and it's quite possible that I'm wrong) but I would think that in a real world apprehension situation, you'd want the dog to target the center of the man's mass to have the best chance of a solid grip and take down.  That you wouldn't want to remove that genetic predisposition and teach him to instead, target to the sleeve side?

I guess I'm just pondering what looks to me (again I don't know, maybe in the real world you don't want the dog to target the center of the man) like a real disparity between what we want to train for and see on the Schutzhund field vs what we'd really want out of the dog's work, were he truly working in a real life protection/apprehension situation?

I prefer I catch a dog by where it is taking me.  Some are easier, some are harder.  I hate thinking a dog goes one way all the time, because you start to get lazy and dogs do things different when you least expect them too.  I don't let just anyone catch my female.  I think she's easy, she launches, but very fast and center mass, but it is a smooth easy catch as far as I'm concerned.  But anyway back to your question

I don't think any of it has real world application.  I will never send a dog on someone from that far away, they'd be bullets or we'd be running the other way.  PD's I trained with won't either usually, 90% is an area or building search, drugs or the patrol work is in relatively close quarters.  If a dog is sent from a distance, the subject is usually fleeing anyway, not running towards.  On that less frequent chance a person is running at them, I think teaching the dog people move out of the way and to gather and expect that.  There will be no launching until the last moment and that is just into the bite.  

For sports, I want them to launch, it looks better :)  I use that with everything else to make a judgement.  I want to see center mass, pure commitment and solid grip.  With a competent helper there is no real need to slow them down or teach one side or the other.  Some dogs just don't do it.  Try moving the target on my female, you're likely to get bit in the chest

All my dogs are worked and trained to target up on the man. The target is the helper not the sleeve.  Also all my dogs are worked on both the trial catch and also the old run turn and charge like the old Schutzhund test. What I like is my Cruise when the helper turns and charges he shifts gears and really hammers. It takes a very good helper to catch a dog like this but it is a much better test.    

Zdog:

​            My female Fiest will cut you off in a heart beat if you step out on her. 

 

Thank you for this thread, as it brings out the disappointment I had when I went to my 1st IPO trail. 

It seemed to me that the dogs really did not have the intent to take the helper down, which really does not seem to be a true test.  I went to the trial thinking that IPO was a competitive way to show how well a dog measures up on obedience, retrieval, agility, tracking, and protection.  It was a the protection/bite work that I was disappointed, even with the dogs that were going for IPO 3.  They went for the sleeve just fine, but there really did not seem to be any full intent there (i.e. if the sleeve was not there, the dog would not know what to do). 

Thank you again for this thread.

We will send our  dogs to apprehend a fleeing felon, granted the dog is targeted properly.  Our most recent bites have been from a good distance and the dog bypassed citizens standing around and Officers who were chasing the suspect.  Our K-9 handlers routinely take the number one spot or lead car in a vehicle pursuit.  When the suspect bails, if it is safe for the dog with traffic for example he is sent.  Either the dog comes through the front drivers door or the rear door is popped and the dog is deployed.  

I have had had bites while fighting with a suspect and being hands on.  I have had bites with the dog on lead making an apprehension and I have sent my dog to apprehend a running suspect.  I've clocked my dog at 32 mph, I am absolutely using that speed and power to apprehend a fleeing felon. 

Very informative responses, thank you everybody!

Personally, I love the way he comes and the power he brings to that bite but I don't want to see him get jammed.   As IPO is what we participate in, I suppose I need to find a way to work him out of going for center mass, it just seems a shame when its what he brings, genetically, to the table.

Lael,
There really is no reason to do a long bite with your dog on every training session, just as there is no need to give the dog stick hits on every single drive.   If your decoy gives a nice sleeve presentation early the dog will come very fast.  If the decoy presents the sleeve as the dog closes it will gather and slow down to target.  If you are working with a good decoy it shouldn't be an issue if your dog targets center mass.   Your decoy may have a problem if he tries to anticipate which side the dog will favor.  For example, if the decoy steps to the right to take the dog on his left side, your dog will cut him off and go right, directly into him.  With a dog like yours the decoy is best off staying straight, giving a nice presentation and not pivoting until the dog commits.  

With most sport dogs you can "guide" them to either the left side, which I prefer, or the right side with how the sleeve is presented.  This probably will not work for your dog.  When working Police K-9s in a suit, occasionally I will juke them to make them miss on a down field frontal bite.  You need to be very careful with this as well.  It conditions the dog to come straight into the decoys chest, harder than before.  This is not something we do very often, just occasionally.  

Jim,

Actually our helper for training has no problem with catching him.  He has worked him since he was a puppy and has never run into issues but he's probably been subconsciously compensating for his straight on approach.

Its only when we've worked on a different helper, which we had to do for the last trial we had, then the issue showed itself.   I never work this dog on inexperienced helpers or other helpers unless I 100% confidence in them, just because of how fast/hard he's always come but it was suggested that we address this coming straight into the body and try to ease him out of it, so he could be trailed safely on other helpers as we progress.

How old is your dog now?