Training the Bark and Hold - Page 1

Okay, I have a situation where my dog really lights up if the decoy is moving and teasing her, but all efforts to get her to do a bark and hold when the decoy is standing still are meeting with failure.

I can't get her to bark at all on cue, and I've tried just about every trick I can think of. My other dog will bark when excited, or when I'm holding a toy/bite bag out of her reach, so I've tried to use that to trigger her to bark, but no success. I've also tied her to a post, and teased her with a bite bag or toy, but again, she won't bark, and eventually loses all interest. Tried getting her to bark for her food - same result.

Can anyone give some suggestions as to how to transition from just doing line bites to doing a proper bark and hold? I feel like we're stuck. I go to training, the decoy does some line bites and escape bites with her, and everyone says, "Oh, she's got great drive, and a really nice full mouth grip! Nice dog - lots of potential!" then we pack it in and go home. (She does bark when the decoy is teasing her.)

She just turned 3 yesterday, and we're still working on the BH, but I'd like to see her making more progress towards getting her IPO degree. (Would have likely gotten the BH last fall, but my mom took sick, then died, and I was having to travel to Quebec frequently to be with her, then deal with the estate. Life gets in the way sometimes...  )

She is probably stuck in prey drive, she may need to be worked differently. If you could tie her up while getting the other dog to bark,she might be stimulated by example and give a bark, reward immediately.

Markobytes, that's exactly what I tried, and no, it didn't work at all. I've made numerous attempts at numerous times, both at home, and at the local ball park where I often go to train.

Too many helpers that I have seen don't bring the dog up properly. Dogs are not taught the helper is an adversary that is to be overpowered, but is the guy that makes the tug move. There are times in the IPO routine that dogs are supposed to be in prey, as in running blinds, and times when the dogs are supposed to be in defense, such as the bark and hold. Defense needs to be taught properly, with the helper displaying the appropriate amount of threat for the dog, and building the dog. The helper should be teaching the dog to switch drives at the appropriate times. From what I have seen, too many helpers are teaching the dog to just get through the routine and are not considering the purpose of Schutzhund. They may be making a decision that the dog can not handle it, but they are not doing their job. There is too much training based on getting the dog out of their mind in prey, and trying to control it later, both in obedience and in protection.

 That's my concern, Markobytes. In the year and a half I've been with the club, I've seen numerous decoys come and go, and the one I really liked quit a couple of weeks ago, due to differences of opinion with a guy who acts as the club trainer. The 2 guys who are working the dogs now - well, I have no idea how experienced they are. My guess is, not very. 

The guy who quit really seemed to know what he was doing, and had different ways of working my dog, and was always coming up with something new to try to bring out the best in her. He also was extremely good at reading dogs, and could see things other people couldn't. For instance, the one time he worked my older dog, he could see exactly when she was starting to get angry, and switch from prey to defense.

I'd like to find better decoying, but with only 2 months until the training season is pretty much over in my part of the world, changing clubs  just isn't a good option.

Too much training goes into training an Exercise and not Real Training in learning the real situation...I mean teaching them what the Exercise is really about...
To me...an Exercise is the end result of the training...You teach the real situation...then you begin working on an Exercise...
At 3 years of age your girl should have been worked in Defense...Is this the case? If so what was the result? Will she bark in a stationary situation...when the "Helper" or even You stands there and doesn't move...If she Barks then give her her Reward...

~Bob~

Dogs have to be started in protection work understanding that they bring the fight not the stimulation of the helper or they will get stuck in prey. This can be fixed most times.
I have a question; was she ever worked on the table?

A video of the work would greatly help. Without understanding what the helper is doing to activate your dog and then trying to figure out why it stops...everyone here is just going to have guesses.

 

I have one question what is your dog doing if the helper suddenly escape run away form the dog if you
have the dog on leesh. does the dog have any interest in de helper ?does she react or any barking ?is the dog  show any drives?
or have the dog not any interest in the helper. I forget IPO is more sleeve focus sorry  .we do this in KNPV  test some dogs if they show some focus to the helper but I think you can use the same in IPO.

Did you try this before?

 

No, she has not been worked on the table (AFAIK, the club doesn't do that sort of training) and no, she has not been worked in defense.

The last two training sessions, since the decoy I like left, I felt like we were going backward instead of forward. They introduced her to the sleeve last year, then with the last training session, the decoy was using a 3 ft. long, really fat tug, which is what they use to start dogs that are total beginners. I told him to used the bite pillow instead, but he alternated between the two. He was acting silly and goofy, waving his arms around to stimulate her prey drive. Then when I let her go for the bite, she'd do a really nice bite on the pillow, and he'd drive her for a short bit, mimicking like he had a stick in his hand.

Edit: BM, she runs after him if he's agitated her first. I don't think we've tried this without him first teasing her. Might be a good idea to start with that - do a couple of escape bites with him teasing her, then try one where he just stands still, then runs.

She does bark when he's teasing her, be's definitely not much of a barker. Had a friend come to the door just now, and I noticed it was my older dog doing the barking, though I have heard her bark at noises or when she sees someone walking past outside.