SV Prejudice Against Sables - Page 1

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by Sunsilver on 21 August 2021 - 10:08

At some point, I came across a quote from - pretty sure - it was Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook Kennels. He asked the SV president when a sable German Shepherd was going to win VA status in the Sieger Show.

The reply was 'Never- not as long as I am president of the SV!'

Does anyone remember which SV president said this? And how long ago?

Obviously this prejudice against sables still exists, as very few German show lines are sable in colour!

by Klossbruhe on 21 August 2021 - 12:08

Well, you would probably have to ask Koots when he asked the question. Here is a list of SV presidents
1899-1935: Captain Max von Stephanitz.
1935-1945: Dr Kurt Roesebeck.
1945-1956: Mr Caspar Katzmair.
1956-1971: Dr Werner Funk.
1971-1982: Dr Christoph Rummel.
1982-1994: Mr Hermann Martin.
1994–2002: Mr Peter Messler.
2002–2015: Wolfgang Henke.
2015--------: Univ Prof Dr Hermann Messler


by Hundmutter on 21 August 2021 - 12:08

Sunsilver, have heard it said about Hermann Martin. The brothers who promoted the black n (very) Red dogs certainly gave every appearance of avoiding sables in their own lines. But its quite possible it was one of the others, its a common prejudice and there is evidence of that from the beginning of the breed if you read around enough.

Koos has been around for long enough to have seen a lot of the guys on the list come & go.


by Rik on 21 August 2021 - 12:08

there seems to have also developed prejudice against black more so than sable. so too bi-color.

also to just drag a comment over from the WL thread, I didn't see Timo in person, did see the video where he is pulling way ahead of the pack as far as gait. many people who did see him, including SV judges thought he was a very good dog. I did have a sable Timo descendant that I liked a lot.

and also I agree that judging a GSD from a show perspective has pretty much limited the original purpose, but it is what it is.

by Klossbruhe on 21 August 2021 - 13:08

Timo was a good dog. IMO a better dog than Rikkor and politics aside probably should have gone Sieger, but this is nothing more than a subjective opinion. And though both Walter and Hermann were dead, their cabal (HPR, MVD, HN, HB, HS, PS among others) was still active and very powerful in the SV and they did not want a sable sieger.

I knew Rikkor fairly well and briefly handled him in Aichelberg. He was a nice dog but I was not fond of his head which lacked that certain something that says nobility. HPR once told me he preferred Atlas and Ober to Rikkor. I did not know Josef Heyn and while I was able to see Timo in person fairly close for the stand mustering, I never touched Timo, but he clearly had a better head than Rikkor. It is interesting if you examine Timo's pedigree that you cannot really see why he got the pigment he did. It was perhaps a recessive one off.

PS The last non black and tan sieger that we see today was Bodo vom Lierberg in 1967, a bi color when Dr Werner Funk was SV president.


by Sunsilver on 21 August 2021 - 17:08

Okay, seeing that list of names, I'm almost certain it was Peter Messler. He was president when Timo went VA2, and that's likely what prompted Koos to ask the question. He would have been asking "When is a sable dog going to be Sieger?" rather than VA.

Thanks for your help! Koos makes no bones about what he thinks of the show line dogs, if you check out his website! :o

by Klossbruhe on 21 August 2021 - 18:08

If in fact the question was asked, it seems unlikely to have been Peter Messler given the fact that it was he who wanted to put Timo up for Sieger. It makes no sense that he would say that and then want to put up a dog that was a sable.

Also, it could not have been Wolfgang Henke as he was not a show judge and could not and did not place dogs at any show let alone the Sieger Show.

I would have thought it more likely that it was Hermann Martin.

Interesting you think it was Koos who asked such a question of an SV President since he is not and was not particularly interested in conformation showing but concentrates on Schutzhund IGP.performance.


by Koots on 21 August 2021 - 22:08

Here's another vote for Hermann Martin as having said that.


by Hundmutter on 22 August 2021 - 02:08

Yeah, I've been hands on with a couple of Koos's dogs - both sables - and can see that, Sunny ! Interestingly however I would say that Tierkehoek dogs are often better looking than the product of some Show kennels which produced a lot of sables (v. Grauen springs to mind; one of the kennels here imported a few of those some years back, and they were ugly headed IMO).


by Dog1 on 19 September 2021 - 18:09

There's probably not as much prejudice against sables as there are lack of sable dogs that can produce VA quality. There are only two males that were in that category, Timo and Champ. Neither either had what it took or didn't have the right females taken to them.

There have only been two sable females that had the top quality production, Polara and Happy.

The problem has always been too few sable dogs to draw from to have a chance statistically.


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