bitework problem - Page 1

My male has developed a rather strange habit. If the helper uses the stick with more force, he just grabs the stick and hangs to it fiercely, obviously releasing his former grip. I must admit I thought it particularly funny to watch this . He does this only with helpers with a heavy hand. I am afraid he would knock of his teeth one day soon. Any tips? His trainer thinks it will disappear with time, but I am not sure. Has anyone faced this?

I'd like to hear a bit more info on the dog. ie: how old, what stage of training, how long has he been under the stick if a young dog? Does this happen during training or are you practicing an exercize? ie: escape and attack. From what little info you've given, I'd guess the stick hits are distracting him and he's viewing the stick as a prey object or that he's switching to defense drive under the greater stress of forceful hits and targeting the stick. I'd back his training up a bit if he's a young dog and get him totally confortable with a helper just carrying a stick and rubbing it on him while he's on the sleeve before going back to actual hits. JMHO

Keep the stick away from the dogs mouth?Sometimes stroking the dogs head calmly from front to back will put the dog at ease.How old a dog do you have?I don't think you have too much to worry about Re his teeth but biting the stick during a trial is not such a good thing to do.

he is 2 years . I had to move him from my previous trainer due to some differences, so there was a gap in training for a few weeks. usually the trainer's son and another guy take the role of helper. After the son got married last month, a new guy came in. This guy is almost twice as big as the other two the dog has been used to.He likes (or is used to) tough working dogs and started using the stick a little more on successive sessions. Then one day the dog started this behaviour. If the stick is used "normally", he makes a calm full bite. At first he used to do this only with the new helper, but now he goes for the stick irrespective of the person, if it is hard hitting. he outs perfectly and does not break the heel or anything. However, offlate he has become a little too pumped up when he enters the field. I hope he does not start breaking the heel .

I think mobjack is right, nobody likes to go backwards but maybe a step or so until the dog feels confident again? Dogs do strange things,I know of a dog a friend had, a real bad ass,super hard patrol dog,that was until they put the bitesuit on a female,the dog would not bite to save his life never mind his handlers.....finely got him so he would do it but it took some time..Be patient with him,I'm sure he will come around good luck to you.

Thanks folks

Is this a dog you're training for Schutzhund or for street work?...In the case of a street dog I wouldn't worry about it at all...if it's a Schutzhund dog then I would do just exactly what the others have suggested and that is back up your training a little and if the dog can handle it without paying attention to it...continue to show the stick and to threaten with it and then to stroke the dog with it and at the end of each bite...before slipping the sleeve...give a hard "set" (pull) on the sleeve and once again threaten with the stick and then slip...then after he's used to this I would throw in a quick hit on the leash (work the dog on leash for this) and then after awhile longer throw in a very quick "Hit with the stick"...you're just getting him more and more used to this without giving him time to react...also you said that he shows this type of aggression on new helpers...be very careful and attentive when working him on new helpers...always lay a plan out for the new helper to follow and make sure they understand about the use of the stick...dogs of this type want to show dominance over the helper...it usuallly works if you go the opposite direction with dogs then what they show...so if the dog wants to dominate the helper then just "bite and slip"...until everything calms down and then just throw in a session where he gets to fight the helper a little bit until he understands he can win either way...this is a young dog and if you don't work on this now you'll have a dog the begins to loosen up on the grip and then your causing more problems...Good Luck!

hi -- i would like to add : mobjack brings up some very very good advice and input --- however .. in response to charlie ivory's response ... no charlie dogs don't do at all strange things !! that is to say the dog's behavior isnot withput intent Ie dogs behve for some reason or for some benefit to them ... the real question here is WHY ... what is it about the dog / dog's thoughts or feelings in that scenario that spurns this behavior !! some dogs do see the stick as prey , others have been unintentionally prompted or conditioned [ because it was rewarding and successful to the dog] to target the stick hand .. such as we doo in ploice work to teach the dog to target the weapon hand e.g. gun hand . reasons being obvious. mobjack does have a point that ypoui sometimes need info or to see exactly what is being done to the dog and exactly how the dog is responding .. BUT ditto for some of the previous advice however there are other approaches .. for example i would try carrying the stck around with the dog all the time ... if need be i would teach the dog through behavior modification that the stck is not a play object .i won't elaborate here unless yopu need yto learn how to do this ... or i would carry the stick and teach the dog the acxt of being caresses , touched , tapped etc . with it is not a threatening situation .. [ simply slightly lay the stck on the dog perhaps for starters and feed it hamburg or so .. then progress . ... another approach is similar to how i have trained some of my dogs for ring sport ... to teach that nothing matters but the bite .. absloutely nothing !! any object in the envitonment is jusy there with and inconsequential .. i teach my dogs to simply ignore anythiing but the bite rag tug/ suit etc. this concept can be carried over to " the stick means nothing .. it is irrelevent to you [ dog ]biting . last of all .. whatever is meant in backing up in training ???[ you must confront and imeediately address this stick issue . i am not sure what the others intend .. dogs don't unlearn behaviors they simply learn new behaviors .. but do not give the opportunity for this to happen again and by all means under no circumstances do you let the dog get rewarded for biting or attending to this stick . so is it prey ?? fear ?? mistakes in training /targeting ?? the dog has the answer him/hherself, watch the dog and listen to it -- good luck - TOPDOG

Wolfgang, he is not for street work - he is essentially a show dog who needs to get his SCH . I just had a long chat with the trainer and he is of the opinion that the dog seems to have become "smart" to realize that the stick causes pain and hence hanging on to it is rewarding. He is planning to step back in training a bit and slowly get him used to staying on with the sleeve, and regarding the stick as a neutral object. It also seems that if the helper keeps the stick away from reach when the dog lunges for it, the dog tries to go for the helpers neck. A colleague of mine owns his litter brother. His dog is a tough guy too. I put on a sleeve to test and almost felt he would break my arm. Initially, he had an annoying problem that he used to trip the helper up from behind by going for the lower calf. He does not do this anymore. Maybe "freestyle biting" is the current "in thing" for these boys. Thanks to all of you for your input.

Howdedo...I have worked a number of, usually very large, show line dogs that have been some of the hardest dogs to control on sleeve...they seem to all have their own opinion of how this thing works...I would suggest that you make it very simple when working him...and that is to just basically do back up type bites and slip the sleeve...then after awhile of doing this (how long you do it all depends on the dog and how often you work him)...then when this becomes common place and he starts calming down and focused on the sleeve and the bite and not the stick...then you can start to add in some pressure...be careful of adding too much fight...for he will start to over load and go back into his goofy mood again...