BSZS 09/07/23 - Page 2

Pedigree Database

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by Hundmutter on 13 September 2023 - 04:09

Dog1, you were certainly right about Mio.

From what I saw of video of Usher's progeny parade, really he is a bit of an exception though; much as we should not take a short clip of film as gospel, (any more than that one still photo is a good complete way to assess any dog), I thought that group was pretty average. One or two obviously nice looking dogs in it, but otherwise I was not impressed. Of course he has mated a LOT of bitches, and quality will vary according to what comes in from the female side.

Overall I still like the look of Usher though, and I like what I see of Mio, too, from the weekend.

Sad that if you guys are right, money and influence has more to do with results than the quality of the animals, but its been like that for a long while, I guess.


by Dog1 on 13 September 2023 - 20:09

Interesting results. The big change being no progeny required to be VA. Historically the VA ratings were ranked according to the number and quality of offspring presented in the groups. Gave an incentive for breeders and owners to participate and a chance to see what a dog could produce.

My money is on Promo to be on top in 2 years. Excellent motherline from Mike. Already has progeny. Could have gone VA this year by comparison.

Regarding Remo, seems that line is promoted with the top VAs representing that line. Top 3 young males come from it too. Too much Remo? Reminds me of too much Larus, too much Ursus. It only takes one or two good ones to continue the line and nobody says you have to breed to it anyway. There are other bloodlines represented in the VA group. Knock yourself out.

The Remo line is successful as history has been recording the past few years. Is it Remo or did the right females go to him and other from the line and prop them up? Certainly a combination of both. How do we know if it's Remo or the female? Let's look at it from another angle. The mother's side of Remo. Shouldn't we be able to see what genetic strength is there by looking at the female side of things? There's a limited amount of offspring a female can produce. What's the outcome bred to multiple males over the generations?

We have 4 generations of results to determine the answer. Remo's sister V42 Ronda. Not a bad place to start. Two daughters Haifa V30, Hilary SG32, VA5 (US). Not a bad generation. From Hilary, SG10, VA5 Finn, SG32, V16 Cibaly, SG42 Imani, SG3, V25 Kosmo, Not a bad Generation, From Cibaly, SG4, V35 Esmee, SG4 Inaya, SG46 Ocean, SG26 Taiwani, SG5, V4 Thiago.
Not a bad history of top production. The SV may be on to something.

Working ability. Nothing in the pedigree says working ability is there. Decent pedigree, Hill is in there with Dux, Daggi. If you want work from the line, better go to Vernheim while you still can. Otherwise bring your female that has Enzo Buchorn, Amigo Belgier, maybe Vando Morbeck to the line and see what you get.



by charlie319 on 14 September 2023 - 11:09

Usher is a moderately mediocre regional show-dog. Were it not for Kao ownership... Kao owned Remo, Omen, Willy, Usher, Uvo... And brokers sales of elite show dogs (competition) to China and Taiwan...
My guess us the SV dictates what wins at major shows... Why they chose to promote a line that can't/won't work is a mystery.


by charlie319 on 14 September 2023 - 11:09

Not the first hinky thing they've done on the Remo era...

Creating VA1's out of thin air...


by charlie319 on 14 September 2023 - 11:09

Then, they took stick hits out... USCA figured a way to skirt the issue...

by Klossbruhe on 14 September 2023 - 13:09

The SV did not take stick hits out. It was an Ukase from the FCI and the animal rights people. The SV had no choice as a member of the FCI. UScA is not a member of the FCI and is not a breed club (though they pretend to be) and does its own thing and always has. They have never really been interested in conformation. If you don't think so, just look at who has served as their executive board from their founding to the present. Where are the show lines breeders. And why did people like Ricardo and Old Man Henkel and other conformation enthusiasts leave during the 1990s? UScA have always been fixated on protection, on biting. Of course, they give lip service to conformation and have an annual sieger show but this is because it raises money for them, otherwise they would not do it as they have no real interest in conformation.

The BSZS is not the Bundessiegerprufung, It is not a test of tracking, obedience and protection. It is first and foremost a show about conformation. Stephanitz was concerned with conformation as well as protective instincts. This is not to say that the SV has not moved far away from what dogs were like during his time, but so has Western society and its values. Every dog is no longer entitled to one bite as the law used to be. Society will not tolerate the temperament of the dogs of yesteryear.

As for Remo, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about him and not in my opinion a particularly accurate one. Dog1, however, with his years of breeding experience and active participation in showing in the US and in Germany is far more accurate in his assessment. You should reread what he has written here because it is more objective and accurate.

As for le grand Josephine, yes she has played a corrosive role, but there are dozens standing right behind her with open wallets. And we must not forget, that it is the breeders and owners who are more than happy to fill their purses with her money. And sadly this has been the case as far back as the 1920-30s when top dogs like Pfeffer von Bern, Utz Haus Schutting, Klodo Boxburg and his like were being sold to rich Americans.

The choosing of VAs has been an exercise in politics and greed. (There is a famous video about Uran being sold to some rich Chinese person) Yes, the VAs get bred to excessively and as a result do produce some excellent dogs but probably not a very big percentage of what is whelped from them with their hundreds of breedings. The dogs that go V10 to V30 are generally far better in most respects including conformation and what they bring. It is only at club shows where you will usually get a chance to see an unbiased evaluation of conformation.


by Sunsilver on 14 September 2023 - 14:09

I've gotten as far as the VA7 dog, and even though he doesn't have Remo in his pedigree, he still looks just like the others that do. Cookie cutter sameness.

The only dog that looks a bit different is Arminius, and that could be due to a bad picture. His picture on the PDB makes it look like he's got a short body, and ridiculously short legs.

Ugh. And they are all so closely bred, it's a wonder they are still able to reproduce...

[sigh] I'll show myself out... :(

by Klossbruhe on 14 September 2023 - 15:09

Why is all the dogs looking alike a problem? Since there is something called the conformation standard, I would have thought that the goal for breeders was to breed to the standard as closely as they could. So, unless all of the dogs are exhibiting the same conformational flaws for example short croup, low withers etc, I do not see why the dogs looking alike is a bad thing.

I would agree with you if you are making this argument as to pigment--no blacks, no sables, no bicolors, but I cannot see making it as such things as angulation, earset, topline etc. Obviously the SV has a pigment bias which they have had since the 1970s. Whether this is because so few dogs that are bicolor, black or sable have good conformation or because they are all in sway of Hermann Martin's color prejudices, I cannot say.


by Sunsilver on 14 September 2023 - 16:09

Klossbruhe, the problem is the lack of genetic diversity. Pedigrees and breeding co-efficients don't adequately reflect how bad it is. But when Embark tests are done on these dogs that show the true level of homozygosity (how many chromosomes are the same) it's often close to 50%, which is what you'd expect from littermates. And that just isn't healthy for the breed. 

 I know fans of the GSLs won't agree with me, but I also feel the conformation IS faulty. Heads are too big and heavy and have loose flews (against breed standard.) Dogs don't have good forward reach from the shoulder, and are so unbalanced between front and rear that the trot is no longer a 2 beat gait. 

 If you can get your hands on a copy of Linda Shaw's book on the conformation of the GSD, she explains it in more detail. 

 Here's what the trot looked like in 1967:

Bodo Gaiting


Here's what it looks like now: Labo vom Schollweiher

Both dogs are on a tight leash, so that can't be used to explain the differences. What is different is the angle of the pelvis has changed, bringing it lower to the ground. The hind legs have more angulation (longer upper thigh) so the dog has to angle them outwards to fit its leg under the body. I'm sure this is not good for the joints. Also, the angle of the pelvis means the thrust of the hind legs is more upward, which causes the front end to lift, thus the high angle of the front leg in this photo, which is so typical of the modern show lines. This means the hind leg will hit the ground before the front, instead of in unison with it as it normally should at the trot. Again - wasted energy. Shoulder angulation has changed too. As you will see, Bodo has much better front reach than Labo. You should be able to see Labo's right elbow joint, if his reach were as good as Bodo's.


by Klossbruhe on 14 September 2023 - 17:09

I do not disagree with you on the question of genetic diversity. I do not know if these VA dogs were all bred to the same females or litter mates etc, but most experienced breeders will tell you that the female brings 60 to 70% of the litters characteristics. But even if it is 40-50% surely there must be diversity. I do not know nor have the time to check to whom the female partners were and their backgrounds, but, of course, if they are similar, there would be a problem.

I do not think you can tell a lot from the pictures you have posted. It appears that the dogs were in different phases of gaiting and what's more, dogs were gaited differently at show 50 years ago. You can watch old videos to see this. Beyond that, Bodo von Lierberg, conformationally speaking, is an entirely different dog from Labo. If you looked at them standing, not even stacked, on a loose leash, you would immediately notice this. The toplines and croups and heads are entirely different. How many dogs from 1967 look like the dogs of today. It is almost like comparing apples to oranges. Speaking of which, does Bodo or the dogs of 1967 look like Horand, do they even look like Utz Haus Schutting or Pfeffer von Bern who came 30 years after Horand?

Over time, the wording of the standard has changed and the SV's concept of conformation has changed. Basically, it sounds like you are someone who wishes for the "good old bygone" days. I think Erich Renner, who I knew, might agree with you. But were the old days good? Maybe...where were you in 1967, were you showing, breeding, doing schutzhund, attending shows? I wasn't, I only started in 1990. But I have talked to SV judges and breeders who were active back then. Some hate how Hermann and Walter Martin changed the GSD, others approve of the changes and think they are improvements. But one thing is for sure, the Martins could not have done it by themselves if the majority of the Vorstand and rank and file breeders and exhibiters did not go along with them.


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