Russian bloodlines - Page 3

Rik, while I agree that, for the moment at least, there's little question but that the "dominant-black Russian showline" dogs have been accepted by the recognized breed registries of the world as being purebred GSDs, so there is no impediment for breeders to incorporate these 'fresh' genetics into their programs in an effort to avoid the bottleneck that is so problematic, especially for the European showline side of the breed.

But with the advances being made in the field of genetic investigation, the day may come when testing will be able to not only identify if there's been genes from other breeds introduced into a breed, but determine in which generation that introduction first occurred. When that day arrives, how will the breed registries handle it when the revelation comes that breeds and crossbreeds were used in order to instill and then establish a dominant-black gene into the GSD breed?

I feel about these Russian showline dogs the same as I do about the brindle "German Shepherd Dogs" we see breeders of GSDs for 'rare colors and markings', and most of the dogs being registered as "Panda" GSDs yet are no relation to the original Panda female in which that mutation was confirmed: just because a breed registry issued papers for the animal doesn't mean it truly is a purebred specimen of its purported breed. If others want to include those lines in their breeding programs, it's not to me to prevent them--but I won't be buying dogs that carry such lineage. I'm not hostile to mixed- or cross-breed dogs, I just don't want them passed off as being purebreds.

BTW, this is the translation for the portion of kitkat's post that came through in Cyrillic instead of English, as translated by Google Translate:

"However, the question is rhetorical, more worrisome for those breeders who have remained faithful to pedigree traditions and did not follow the lead of fashion. They are, first of all, concerned about issues related to the appearance of the gene for the dominant black color in the breed. By whom and when was that fatal knitting made? Was it casual or purposeful? What breeds of dogs served as the starting material for these experiments? How many generations have passed since then? And what to do next with this already quite large population? All these questions are still open. But sooner or later they will demand an answer."

In Australia, a breeder introduced a dingo into his bloodlines. (I think he was breeding Kelpies.) When the Powers That Be found out, all his dogs were removed from the registry. I'm not sure how far back the cross was when it was discovered, but quite a few dogs were involved.

Of course, the Kelpie breed DOES have some dingo blood in it, and the breeder was just trying to infuse some more, hoping it wouldn't be noticed.

well, I m still not convinced. i do a lot of pedigree research, some of the black dogs that show up can be explained by the lines, where i know the DDR dogs that have been introduced. but some of these dogs pop up from the same lines bred everywhere else but its not until these dogs are bred in Serbia and Russia that this black starts coming to the front. And still, why only recently has this black start appearing in these russian dogs when they have been breeding the same dogs there in the past, as they are now.
Some times, regardless if you adding with old math, or the new math, 2 plus 2 just don 't add up to 4. i in no way am saying that there something not right here, but I also ain t willing to say it is.
Some are drop dead gorgeous dogs. Alot of people will look only to the 3rd, and 4th generation to be convinced, but unless you dig deeper, you won t find answers. but then again, there are a good many people that breed dogs that are totally clueless of any of the dogs in the pedigrees of dogs they are breeding.

Like SS said, advances in DNA will eventually sort it out I'm sure, especially as they become more popular in western countries.

if someone did introduce something extra, it appears they were very skilled, on the show conformation part of it.

haven't heard if there are any particular health problems.

also wonder if there are long coats produced by these dogs?

inquiring minds want to know.

Rik, there absolutely are coated dogs produced by these 'dominant black' lines.

thanks hexe, I haven't researched much at all, but a lack of LC gene would have made me a little skeptical, or should say a little more skeptical.

I don't have a horse in the race and agree with others that eventually it gets sorted out through advances in science.

I followed the pedigree back as far as listed on this site, which seemed to be early 80's unless I missed something.

it's interesting any way.

don't want to start clogging up Irina's video thread on BSZS. looks like the black dog in LSC class is Marcello .

he is from Russian dominant black.

ETA: looks like Marcello went V-4. Marcello again

ETA again, looks like you have to choose LSH adult ruden. link goes to first page.

I'm still not convinced, either.  No response to my e mail to Laboklin (yet ?), and I have not found anything else on colour genetics research in GSD that helps (so far). However - I note from the thred on SV prejudice against sables that in Margit van Dorsen's paper as linked, she refers to the proportion of sables in the breed in relation to the numbers of black puppies produced. Van Dorsen does not credit the 'Dominant Black' gene with an existence.

Since she wrote this article post 1996 , before the dates cited by Lyudmilla Arkhangelskaya - Van Dorsen also refers to numbers of sables registered in the Zuchtbuch of that year - it would seem that there was no proof, at least in German dogs up until '96/7.  So  where there are black dogs that are definitely GSDs in those lines, I'm inclined to put it down to the mixing of s/l and working dogs that Lyudmilla described in her early paragraphs, and the genetics for black colouration being just as we always knew them. Post 2008-ish, however, it does look as though there may indeed be some infusion of a different breed or breeds of dog. If nothing else, that would explain the increasing numbers of 'black dogs with tan or brindle 'bleed through' colour on their lower extremities, that we have also discussed here on PDB.

But it was dishonest for these ever to be accepted anywhere as 'pure' GSDs - I suspect few, if any, went anywhere near a Survey where DNA is required, and think many may have ended up in the  informal Working sector or in the 'pet' market. I am not against mixing in different breeds when one is trying to develop a new breed, but in a 'finished', accepted, catalogued breed such as the GSD, I personally believe that if you are going to do it, that it should be done WITH HONESTY and openness and planning, not just through the back door in pursuit of making any certain colour, or other feature, happen more often. Bearing in mind that whenever you condense a breeding programme down to looking for one attribute over all else, you are bound to lose some of what the breed is reknowned for. So if looking to buy a dog now, I would proceed with caution, as I might get a black dog but it would not necessarily be a typical GSD.

The Russian dominant black gene in dogs was discussed years ago on the PBD. 

Members might be interested in reading this.

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=607513-the-dominant-black-gene

the bleed through is evident in Marcello's littermate Magnum.

bleed through is not uncommon in GSD so no idea if it is indicative of anything in this case.