by ValK on 08 November 2019 - 13:11
that's in reference to remark about german shepherd dogs and trait for "predatory" behavior.
predatory and prey are synonyms and not suitable to purpose, GSDs have been used for centuries even before establishment as official breed. GSDs never been dogs for hunt but rather guard dogs. why the dog, who entrusted to guard livestock should be predator? leave alone that predation/hunt have nothing in common with protection and guarding.
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 13:11
Because we suppress certain drives and develop others to suit our needs of dogs. Have you ever thought of how UNatural it is for a dog to bring back a dead bird or rabbit to a human after it went and got it?
Why would that animal bring back and relinquish precious food to a human....because it has been bred and trained to suppress certain drives, again, in order to serve humans, simple.
What is protection based on Valk, what drives must a dog have in order to guard, according to you? I am very curious to understand you sir.
by Centurian on 08 November 2019 - 14:11
Hired I understand what you say .. Better for me to clarify .. there can be exceptions in life . So let me express this if you will . People and dogs , we are all valuable , no more no less , We all stand before the Good Lord the same . All people and all dogs are God's creation . Those that don't believe in God , still people and dogs are not of our own creation and the next scentence still holds true. In that sense all dogs and people are equally important and of value. However I keep people and dogs seperate to the issues. People and dogs can do bad things but that does not decrease their worth . That is to say : we have Reverence for life . What they have done is a different matter / issue and does not deserve to be esteemed . On this I agree with you: that we do not have to have esteem for what they do . Ditto for dogs . In short I keep the issues apart frothe personalities .
Why do I discuss this … because it is related to breeding . How a prson great and looks on another person , is directly related hiow they will treat and look upon a dog. That in psychological principles is a fact. If I see a person abuse a dog , that is how you can bet that same person treats their family members. How a person values a dogs on general , in general , is how deep down inside their soul they will value a person. How they value and treat a person often is how they wil value and treat a dog [ of course in ife their are exceptions ] .To care for a German Shepherd [ or MAL ] is to truly breed for the betterment of the breed . Crossing does not better the bred , it just creates mix breeds
Valk .. to answer the last qustion to you from Hired : [ and I don't talk about drives ..what is a drive ? ….. I say in order to guard , a dog must also want to ….survive. Why does a dog instinctively , inherently guard. because as an animal if it did not , everybody would take it's food away and it would starve to death … A dog guards ..because it wants to keep it's resources and live . Note *** people are and do become to a dog's an extraordinarily valuable resource . - and sometimes problem situations come about from this too …and sometimes the best things happen out of this…
To share with everyone … The first I teach my dogs is not attention . Because that is not what I want from my dogs in the sense that I do not want the dog to be simply visually looking at me. I teach they are loved , safe and that they can trust and depend on me as a pack member because I provide their resources . Anf on that note this is something that I need not teach because it is put upon them to , their RESPONSIBILITY , to mentally and visually , attend to me. So when a dog looks to me it is mentally and not just with their eyes with the feeling that they are safe , secure , trusting , ready to take my direction . Everything flows that relationship I establish from them feeling that with they are safe and secure and that thier needs are fulfilled . THAT is what brings the pup to me …in a transcendent way … Again , only my npersonal shared thought and experience for whatever it is worth .
by ValK on 08 November 2019 - 14:11
eating is a process of consumption of a matter other than of itself to sustain own existence.
how much of the hunt instinct is possessed by herbivorous, worms or microbes?
even predator, motivated and acting by hunt instinct, will do it only as long, as there no threat to own life and well being and won't
sacrifice own life for goal to obtain piece of meal.
but predator, during protecting of own pack, territory, cubs or status (which is not hunt), more unlikely to easily give up that fight, even
if that fight can led to death or being seriously injured (which in wilderness is equal to a death sentence).
by ValK on 08 November 2019 - 14:11
i didn't accuse you in advocating trend of wash out protective instinct. it's just was my remark on what happened and how i see it.
of course not all dogs in GSD breed can be capable to be potent protector. that was before and still today.
it's just absolutely wrong to apply artificial, fake performance as a mean of solution for problem, implemented through selection and breeding practice.
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 15:11
So, in your opinion, a dog is not worth anything, unless its willing to die while protecting something?
A very romantic notion, but, since you mentioned other animals to give me an example, I guess that you are either unfamiliar with lions or you just left out that single example.
See Valk, in the wild, when a new male comes into a pride of lions, the first thing it does is kill all the cubs sired by a different male. Yes, the female, the mother of the cubs does try to protect them, but, she knows she will die too if she does not walk away and let her cubs die and she walks.
The male does that for 2 reasons, he does not want to spent time and resources raising cubs that are not his and by killing them, it will put the female back in estrus so he can breed her and create his own off spring.
Like I said Valk, a romantic notion, but, why does anyone have to die while hunting? You hunt to survive and you take calculated chances of making a meal out of the animal you hunt.
Now, again, tell me, what qualities and drives does your dog possess that will protect until its own death comes?
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 15:11
I also do not understand your statement that even those who are not religious must accept that some God created all of us...how does that work?
Next, I can assure you sir that the way I treat dogs is NOT the way I treat humans and the way I treat humans is not the way I treat dogs, not even close.
Now, you can sit there and pontificate on this statement and come up with whatever you choose Cent, but, I understand that humans are humans and dogs are dogs and never shall the two be confused.
People that do bad things are still worthy you said? A piece of scum who hurt a small child is a human who deserves the same reverence as maybe that child's mother?
I dont know where you come from sir, but, again, proper decorum prevents me from describing exactly what a scumbag like that deserves and how he should get it.
The so called humans who beheaded innocent people in the name of some BS are worthy of respect?
Again, no idea where you are from, but, in my world, we have a different outlook on these things and a very different way of resolving them.
by Centurian on 08 November 2019 - 16:11
Also take note Hired : I state that there are exceptions in life . Many of my posts state that " nothing is absolute in the dog [people] world" . However, what I wrote has much validity , I write this with certainty . People that treat people abusively or molest people are people that have been molested or abused. People that talk disrepectfully to people are people that have been disrespected . [ and yes there are exceptions ] . In addition I have encountered many times the scum that you write about , again I write that nothing is absolute in life but there are generalities. Our behavior is expressed by and in what we have learned in life. If you have learned abuse , then that most likely [ not absolutle ] what you direct your behavior- you act abusely . If you have experienced and learned compassion , then that is how one conducts thenself , compassionately. I will tell you , and I disclose this I am professional in this regard , my life work is based on this , if someone abuses or beats his dog , it is highly highly and most probable that same man would not hesitate and probalby does beat his wife. [ again there might be an exception ] . But again , I understand this through my Professional lifetime Vocation . One can argue this - I don't care.. what is it to me ? But I want those reading to know that I would never ever ever write this as fact if it weren't true !!
So if you are kind to humans , you surely are not saying you are not kind to dogs- you do not strike me to be that way . . If you are impatient with people , you are not telling me that you are impatient with dogs - again you do not strike me as being that way . If you are , with good reason, compasionate to people , you are not telling ne that you are compasionateless with dogs , again I don't think so … If you respect people , you are not telling me you have no respect for your dogs , I don't beleive that you would be. I don't know you sir , but I believe hat you do treat dogs in many areas as well as you would people. You say differently but my feeling , subjective thought , is that you treat humans and dogs more alike than you relaize. Possible that I could be direly wrong , but I would bet not.
Valk , "I didn't accuse you in advocating trend of wash out protective instinct. it's just was my remark on what happened and how i see it."
Valk - I didn't take your post to mean that and … yes much of the natural potection instinct / traits in the GS has been diminished especially since the 1960's - we agree on that .
by ValK on 08 November 2019 - 16:11
then "predatory instinct" is rather a mean to obtain substance for consumption than "is part of an animal's ability to eat" :)
i don't know much about lions and can't see parallels with dogs other than both of them on menu have a meat. on another hands lions still wild creature, when a dogs did become domesticated and for human it took millennia to oppress predatory traits in dogs and make them most loyal companion and helper.
b.t.w. main cause of failure of cross breeding GSDs and wolves in zPS program were lack of loyalty and dedication to human in obtained from such x-breeding dogs. they even in many generations away from initial mating, did remain to possess too much predator traits.
in fact willingness of dog to selfsacrifice themselves i don't see as romantic. it's rather a copious work and very picky approach in selection to obtain suitable for certain purpose material. every dog is what that dog is born to be. if the dog isn't one to be protector, very possible that dog might excel in other field of use. just don't claim and position this dog as protector, after teaching him to bite the sleeve.
by Hired Dog on 08 November 2019 - 16:11
Is my English that bad that you do not understand this question and I have to ask it for the 3rd time?
Yes, of course a dog is what its genetics dictate, I am the biggest proponent of genetics first.
Yes, the predatory instinct served as a means for a dog to eat, but, why do we have human predators, we are not cannibals? Again Valk, same drives that can be used for one thing, can be used for something else. Why do some labs make good detection dogs? Because we took that same hunt drive they possess and used it to hunt for an odor that we want the dog to find.
In the back of your mind, you still have those notions of training the dog to bite multiple sites on the body, a leg, an arm, etc. You call this a fight I believe from previous posts, yes?
The problem with that philosophy and I am very familiar with it Valk, is that there is no real commitment in the dog when its trained to bite like that. The dog is always anticipating the change of bite, it has been trained this way.
Yes, it looks cool in the movies and sometimes during training, but, still, no commitment when the dog has been trained to transfer from bite to bite.
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