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by Centurian on 09 September 2019 - 12:09


Emoryg ..... A most valid point that you make and ann important one also . I add :... and part of my police canine training involved training and handling ... Blood Hounds [ BTW the best man trialers for LE ]. Yes there is more to a LE canine than just the need for biting !

Valk ... many times you talk about the innate , natural instincts of the GS . I woud like to point out that many of the commentaries that you make have validity when you talk about natural protection . Even though we accept and recongnize that the GS is the most all round utilitarian canine in the world that can do just about every task with some degree of proficiency in general as a breed , at the same time we must also acknolwedge that many instinctual traits have been forever lost in some GS lines . Case in point : there are some breeds that I trained which required absolutely no teaching , absolutely nothing else needed but their 100% natural genetics , for them to protect. Another breed to take note of ,: the use of the KGB's Caucasian Orvchacka - 100 % pure natural genetic defense . Again when Valk talks about the GS in respects , he does have some validity with his commentaries about the loss of inherent genetic protection traits .

by Mackenzie on 09 September 2019 - 13:09

apple - The black and red colour that is prolific today was the wish of Hermann Martin. He decided that the colours grey, black and black and tan (bi-colours) were not to be used. This was against the advice of many experienced people. These colours have not been removed from the Breed Standard. I believe that these colours were also related to keeping some traits in the breed e.g. character, working ability and natural protection ability. The division that we have now in the breed emanated from Hermann Martin who had little time for the working dogs. Glamour became the order of the breed, the WOW factor. In order to achieve this in short time, which he did, meant close inbreeding and line breeding. In doing so the traits of the Breed began to change and the faults that came with this become stamped in with increasing influence in future generations. Breeding families became closer and closer and this is frequently seen in todays pedigrees. The worst effect of this WOW factor is that the money people moved in.

The SV has much to answer for and, not for the better, in the way that the Breed has developed. It is because the Show people outweigh the Working side they are able to out vote other members by a considerable margin. This system means that for me I do not see positive change in the coming years.

The fact that some dogs, not many in relation to the numbers bred, move on the become a Law Enforcement animal is only a small proportion. The SV Qualifications are there at, various levels, to demonstrate that the dogs have learning power sufficiently high enough in a variety of disciplines to achieve a level of competence well below the needs of LE. The reasons for the failings in Show Lines failing so often is the followers of the sector cannot be bothered to train or learn to train a dog themselves. Also, they tend to have too many dogs kenneled at home without enough time to devote to each animal. Time and time again we see too many dogs where there is a lack of proper control. Failing in workability and sound character is not all solely down to the dogs. Responsible owners have to play their part too.

Mackenzie

by Gustav on 09 September 2019 - 17:09

Mackenzie, I am versed in far more than LE work. In AKC obedience there is a significant decline in the Black and Red dogs achieving the UD titles. Often, ( and I know this from working with some of these competitors) when these dogs get to this level of focus in the individual tasks, the ability to not let the environment ( noises, people, strange smells, other dogs), causes so much stress that they are not able to do these higher tasks CONSISTENTLY! This goes directly to nerve strength! Has nothing to do with bitework. Also, many working dogs are singularly detection dogs only. Still, you see very very few of these dogs because the environmental factors ( again nerve strength necessary for the work) make them not suitable for excellence...not the nose, or lack of training, or availability.
Most working venues do NOT discriminate as to where they procure a dog from, furthermore most of these SL dogs are not being shown and go into normal homes...trust me if they were capable of adequate performance with their numbers, they would be scooped up immediately. The only people who push the narrative that lack of training is the reason you don’t see more of these dogs successful in sport, work, or even obedience is the people that don’t participate in these venues....the people in these venues( who know more about what it takes to be successful in these areas) are not seeking these dogs because of the low success rate of the average dog from these lines....and that is very sad! Imo!

emoryg

by emoryg on 09 September 2019 - 18:09

Cent, always enjoyed running backup with our state guys and their blood hounds who worked the prison systems. Several of the handlers would come out and train. Funny, where I enjoyed seeing their blood hounds work, they always volunteered to run as back up whenever we had calls for service. With the BH you never worried about getting too close to the dog, handler or criminal, unless you wanted a wet tongue. Those guys also carried labs with them for narcotics work. That was the main reason they come out for training since we had the drugs. Really nice labs too. I want to say they bred their own, but not sure if it was the labs or BH they produced. Their dogs rode around in the back of pickup trucks in these aluminum cages with small openings. I always thought they would bake in the hot Georgia sun.

The old saying, ‘The German Shepherd is not best at anything, but second best at everything’ rings true for the BH being the trailing dog to beat.

by Centurian on 09 September 2019 - 22:09

Emoryg
A little humor for you and the the PDB : The police dogs we trained were fun and no problem at all , no matter how their temperament was . But ... the bloodhounds ... they nearly killed me . Anyone that has ever run these dogs for man trailing understands ... these dogs dragged us through bushes , briars / thorns , mud , railroad tracks , etc etc etc , for miles and miles and miles and miles . .. Yup that dog nearly did us in .. Much better for me to take a bite and a hard hit from a GS biting machine than it was to be trying to catch up with the hounds , it was .....Ha Ha Ha Ha ha ....

BTW my mentor bred GSs and also Labs for CIA and FBI too . Off topic - but scent work and tracking is a lot of fun to do with dogs .. !!! Low stress and low key !!!

by ValK on 09 September 2019 - 23:09

centurian
i just saying what i know from my own experience. i grown surrounded by particular type of GS dogs and these dogs was very much differ from what i see now. the prepping of those dogs in some respect was similar to what can be seen today, in another - somewhat different and more complex. but the main principle was - use of innate instincts and traits and adaptation of them for utilization to benefit the set of human's objectives. accordingly to this was set selection and breeding approach. if some dog had a genetically dependent flaws, no one bother to correct it through training and of course such dog never will be used in breeding. before my time those rejects was shot. during my time - was just written off, rehomed and assigned to do what they can do best. no monetary interests was behind of this.

i don't know what kind of breeds KGB preferred, beside that once did spotted info that for cover ops. they preferred not eye catching, small toy breed dogs. but that true, in Russia caucasian shepherd and central asian shepherd seems like most popular breeds. i haven't seen in real life central asian shepherd but bumped with few caucasian shepherds. they really huge and strong dogs but from fight interaction i found that well bred german shepherd dog more flex and dangerous in confrontation than caucasian shepherd.
altrough maybe i mistaken and the dogs i have seen just wasn't the best specimens

emoryg

by emoryg on 10 September 2019 - 00:09

Cent,
My only complaint was how long they would take. I like holding on the line and off we go. I remember one little female, she and her handler were never in a hurry. He even talked slow. Lol We had a bank robbery and several hours later they locate the getaway car. This is a call for the BH as we are not very successful with extended delays. She takes scent from the car and off we go. She trails these guy through the woods and swamps for probably four miles. Took forever. She sometimes stays in one small area for ten minutes trying to work things out. Another handler I work with also went with us. He lives on cigarettes. After an hour, he cant stand it and lights one up. So anytime she got caught in a pocket he would lean up against a tree and smoke his cigarette until she decided where she wanted to go. I still think back to him that day. Talk about an addiction.

But his girlfriend didn’t know he smoked. He worked hard to keep it from her, even wearing a coat in the summer to keep the smell off his clothes. He would ride in the patrol car with the windows down so his smoke would blow out. We would always say his dog needed an air pack. Then one weekend a bunch of us handlers and wifes/girlfriends go on a trip to Savanna. On the second day his girlfriend comes up and gives me this big hug. She was one of the weather forecasters you see on TV, so I didn’t turn it down. Then she looks at me and tells me how proud she is of me. I have no idea what she’s talking about, but thinking she may hug me again, I tell her thanks, that means a lot. Then she explains for the last two days she hasn’t seen me smoke one cigarette. What the hell? I have never smoked in my life. Her boyfriend (the handler I worked with) was blaming me every time he went home smelling like cigarettes! He was saying I smoked like a chimney and he was trying to convince me to give it up. He is behind her motioning in prayer not to blow his cover. I was a good friend, and said thanks I was trying to give up the nasty habit. Still laugh at that twenty years later.

Yes, I also love the nosework, especially the track. I would practice 4-5 times a night. When I could not find another handler or officer to lay a track, I would track strangers walking home from work, grocery stores or bars. Only the dogs loved tracking more than me. lol
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 10 September 2019 - 07:09

I bet she knew darn well her boyfriend smoked; suspect she was trying to bring him out on it by saying she'd not seen you smoking.

by Mackenzie on 10 September 2019 - 08:09

Cent - I do appreciate that you are an experienced dog man and trainer. With that experience I think that most of your time is spent with like minded people who are at a similar level. The novice people initially do not know how to train because nobody has either taught them, or, failed in the communication between trainer and handler. This is only one reason why so many dogs fail. Like children dogs have to be taught and allowed to make mistakes so that they can be corrected and this takes time. Some people only spend limited time with their dogs due to a variety of reasons, work or family etc. There is not enough time to bond with a dog, any dog. Also we do not give enough credit to owners whose input to the dog through bonding builds up the confidence in the dog, it can make a whole world of difference to the dog. Some dogs are credited with being fast learners but this is generally only in the hands of an experienced trainer like yourself because you know what to look for. With this in mind I think that we should not be to harsh initially in our criticisms f Show lines or the red and black colour. It can be reasoned that black and red dogs are in decline in the working side is because they are not selected just because of colour and the myth that Show lines are not good enough. For one hundred years the Breed, whether Working or Show dogs had the same breeding families. The difference between then and now is that the Breed has been subjected to close inbreeding.

Lack of training is only one factor to be considered. The bonding is also very important because the dog has trust in the handler and over time becomes easier to train. Time is the enemy. Competition people discard dogs rapidly if the training is difficult because the pressure on the dog to train up is not the same for every dog. Tolerance to pressure improves with bonding. For policemen and others in a related line of work probably have their dog with them all day, every day with as many training sessions as can be crammed in to keep the dog on top line - bonding. Not everyone participates in competition disciplines or LE. The SV however demands a certain level of qualification for a dog to be used in a breeding programme.

Back to the thread.

Mackenzie

by Gustav on 10 September 2019 - 11:09

Mackenzie, One last observation and question.
There is a resurgence of the breed in dogs for the visually impaired,( seeing eye dogs); yet they seem to be universally sable dogs from WL. Now these dogs receive extensive training over a long period of time. They require extensive bonding, they are patiently trained, and they don’t require performance energy of other venues. They are placed in the hands of novices once they are trained. They DO require stellar nerves, especially environmental nerves. It would seem therefore, the SL dog would be a natural fit, especially with the vast numbers of these dogs available compared to WL.
My question, what do you attribute as the reasons for the lack of seeing these dogs utilized by the agencies providing these dogs?



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