The German Sieger Show 2019 - Page 20

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by ali44 on 18 September 2019 - 17:09

Centurian
Living with 12 GS all at the same time in your house- lucky you! I only have 3 and no dirty house either and our blueberry farm impeccable (no distruction, not even one fragil new cane broken) and well guarded even from the voracious birds during the fruiting season.
I admire your officers friends that kept their canine partner with their families- I bet those dogs not only worked better than most but they were also more reliable in a serious situation!

by apple on 18 September 2019 - 18:09

The German Shepherd (erroneously called "German Police"
or Alsatian in many countries) was selected as most suitable
for the work. After a year's experience, it became evident
that the modern German Shepherd had been so carefully bred
for "show points" that, to a great extent, it had lost much of
its original value as a utility working dog. It was then decided
that German Shepherds should be bred at Fortunate Fields in
an effort to recover the original factors of the breed and to
produce a dog of working conformation in conjunction with the
remarkable " teachability " of the earlier Shepherds.

This quote is in response to Emoryg's comment and is in regard to the Fortunate Fields project that breed their own "strain" of GSD that were candidates as seeing eye dogs. They started out with a suitability ratio of only 35% and raised that ratio to 95% by the end of the experiment. This was around 1929, so there has always been a split in the show lines and working lines, the differences have just changed except that the show lines generally were not capable of work.
In the 1930's, W.H. Ebeling who was involved in establishing Fortunate Fields wrote in the "Shepherd Dog Review" of the difficulty in acquiring and breeding GSDs for the Seeing Eye. He told of dogs of beautiful structure and seemingly sound temperament that produced 80% mentally useless stock. He attributed this problem to excessive line breeding and turned to the old fashioned sheep herding Shepherds of Tobias Ott that had no inbreeding and were not bred for beauty, but only utility. It took about 12 years of breeding to produce stock that was 70% suitable to be seeing eye dogs.
In the 1930's, several prominent members of the Nazi party became actively involved in the SV and advocated a desire to produce dogs that were attractive in appearance which was the antithesis of von Stephanitz' motto, "Utility is the true criterion of beauty." However, I still believe he was somewhat hypocritical in some of the dog he selected to develop the breed.

by apple on 18 September 2019 - 18:09

Centurian,
You wanted something to debate about so I will disagree about the wisdom of titling dogs at such an early age. I'm not at all saying it can't be done. I am saying that at such an early age, they are more trained to know the routine than developing a mindset about obedience and bite work that is more functional and a greater ability to figure things out and problem solve. Plus, if a dog has a higher level of aggression, I believe you need to go even slower with that type of dog to maintain control and clarity in the dog.
Irina Kuznetsova

by Irina Kuznetsova on 18 September 2019 - 18:09

V24  1136  Atze v. Rothenbacherwald 

Hans-Peter Fetten  Mönchengladbach  D


emoryg

by emoryg on 18 September 2019 - 19:09

I haven’t spent any time with guide dogs in over ten years.  Even then it was only to do a demo with the police dog.  It was already dominated by labs, goldens with only a handful being GSD.  What I do remember were the four D's.  They all were Docile, lacked Dominance, not easily Distracted and had a strong Desire to please.

I googled the news section “guide dogs” “German Shepherd", hoping to come up with the number of German Shepherds working in that capacity.  I couldn’t locate a number, with most articles having labs and goldens as their focus.   I did see a few GSD that had interesting stories behind them, including one getting lost and then located by the local sheriffs department, another has a video of the dogs training in the airport, one who’s blind human has climbed the seven summits.

https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/06/missing-milwaukie-guide-dog-returned-home-to-grateful-owner.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/guide-dogs-dont-lead-blind-people-we-wander-as-one/2019/08/07/0be20cf2-b545-11e9-951e-de024209545d_story.html

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/iD8G9wpLygn/Puppy+Guide+Dogs+Train+Newark+International/2pz5K9B5Ttp

https://news.hamlethub.com/fairfield/life/43298-fidelco-guide-dog-foundation-opens-wilton-location

https://www.greenwichtime.com/local/article/Greenwich-kindergartners-learn-ABC-s-of-guide-13605145.php

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/learning/learning-with-a-final-proving-ground-for-guide-dogs-to-the-blind-midtown-manhattan.html

Added:

I especially like this picture. 

https://www.greenwichtime.com/local/article/Greenwich-kindergartners-learn-ABC-s-of-guide-13605145.php#photo-16905769

I would often let the rookie police dogs hang out with the old ones hoping their street smarts would mysteriously rub off.Wink Smile

Irina Kuznetsova

by Irina Kuznetsova on 18 September 2019 - 20:09

V25  1030  Porto du Parc à Mitrailles 

Luco Destercq  Haine St Paul  B



emoryg

by emoryg on 18 September 2019 - 20:09

Apple, while you're quoting, why not just credit, copy and paste the whole excerpt and save your keyboard?lol  

Apple:  “In the 1930's, several prominent members of the Nazi party became actively involved in the SV and advocated a desire to produce dogs that were attractive in appearance which was the antithesis of von Stephanitz' motto, "Utility is the true criterion of beauty."

Original:  Maintaining Integrity in the Face of Adversity

“In the 1930s several prominent members of the Nazi party became actively involved in the German Shepherd club in Germany. These members advocated a desire to produce dogs that were attractive in appearance. This philosophy was the antithesis of all that Max von Stephanitz had worked for, which was to develop a dog known for his abilities rather than appearance. He staunchly maintained his position despite threats from the party. “The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs.” Max von Stephanitz, who had always advocated utility over beauty, eventually resigned from the club.”

https://germanshepherdsetc.com/max-emil-friedrich-von-stephanitz/

 

by Centurian on 18 September 2019 - 22:09

Apple your post /comment is difficult to debate because you are correct and at the same time not entirely correct in you commentary and thinking . Simply because .. Much just depends ...

A number of factors plays into what you said: some of which be true and on the other side of the coin could not be true . This would be great topic to sit down and talk about ...

I would add , if you understand the sport you know the degree of signficance of this statement. I have had , again in the past years , SL GS that could do some basic police work at 1.5 years old [ BTW that is when the Academy in my area selects the police dogs to train and starts training ], I have had ** SL GS that at 1 year old were ready for French Ring Brevet and Ring 1 . Of course you have to know when to hold them and when to fold them when teaching a canine.

The QT explanation : All my GS dogs were raised from 8 week pups and those SL GSs held the temperament and genetics to make this possible .The other contributing factor was my mentor who taught me quite well about training. Apple I wrote a whole post about this , but I deleted it because this is a whole different complex topic . Much to long to go off topic about. But anyway as I said there is a way to do and a way not to do . What to do and what not to do . For example , do I ever defense a 4 month pup - hell no . Do I start stick hits at 8 weeks old , of course , absolutely I do . Can I get the pup going in for an entry bite and learn to out by 4 months old [ even at 1o weeks for an entry bite] , absolutely . I do not do anything that it does not naturally as a canine normally do . Even a pup at 8 weeks old problem solves ... and... I capitalize on that . The difference perhaps with me is that I live with my dogs and every thing everything is a way of living life together. My life is no different than If I am competing and competing is no different than how my dog acts in life. With a pup at 8 weeks old : what do I teach it ? EVERYTHING ! I start teaching ...Everything that is going to be required of it. So what you say has merit at times but at the same time does no at other times. Just Depends . How long does it take to teach OB ... I tell you this with honesty .. even a 12 weeks pup of mine has already learned a sit/stay with me out of sight for a spell !! My pup starting at 8 weeks all the way to 6 months .Goodness OB is already down pat by then - I don't even wste time teacbhing Ob at that point. At 8 weeks my pups are already tracking with turns [ 90 degree] , any weather and all types of terrain and surfaces. What do pups and dogs do - they use their nose , don't they .

PS - some day if you want to start a dialogue about what we do or don't do or about Philosophies, I would oblige....

by Gustav on 18 September 2019 - 23:09

Klossbruhle, Thanks for your answer. There is no absolute answer, and I’m fortunate enough to know from my experiences what has evolved with the breed over the past 50years. Once again Thanks!
Irina Kuznetsova

by Irina Kuznetsova on 19 September 2019 - 05:09

V26  1047  Gondor vom Patersweg 

Selena Bickel  Bretten  D




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