by ValK on 09 July 2019 - 00:07
i wouldn't be so categorical to say "start of teaching a pup to pull while biting '".
more attention from guy in video towarded to one (more aggressively active) pup. and that pup in fact doing bite very well - bite and shake type.
less attention received second pup. it looks to me like that pup pulling not for purpose of fight but rather in attempt to draw attention to itself.
sure, if such division will be constant, eventually pup will used to and develop such bite.
attention need to be split evenly to both or interact with one pup at time.
by Centurian on 09 July 2019 - 14:07
Yes indeed , this is the ' start' of a puppy learning tp pull. Absolutely , and I did not say at this point definitively has learned but no matter how any one percieves this , by that one incident of pulling the pup whether intentionally or unintentionally recieved reinforcement from the pulling , while biting. And that reinforcement , increases the probability not just the possibility that pup will do the same behavior. Of course repeated episodes will condition the pup to do this. How many times does it take , how many repetitions does one need to learn ? Puppies .... with every little experience .... every little exprience !! .... they learn and are learning from.
I acknowlwedge what you wrote about : " will be constant, eventually pup will used to and develop such bite. " Yes , but ... the big but for me , my personal bias , is that if you do not want this froma pup or a dog , then why , why let it occur even once . How can I liken this - if you do not want a dog to ingnore you when you call it , then don't call the pup when youn know that it can possibly turn his head , look away and walk in the other direction away from you . You don't want the pupy to learn even once that it can do that . For me ... and as I wrote about targeting , I take what I want the pup to learn [ or to not learn ] extraordinarily seriously and evey little thing I do with a dog /pup is well thought out way beforehand. Nothing I ever do is haphazard or off the cuff, sort to speak . If I do not want the pup /dog to learn something as best I can , I do not even allow that to occur but once !!!
My personal bias , I would never ever have ineracted with the pups like that . I am not saying that I do not et them bite all over me, but I maintain 100% absolute control as to how ,where , when and how they bite me. Now for those that think a flip ..... you are thinking well how on earth do you let a pup bite you and prevent it from pulling ? As with all y posts I want to stimulate people to think : Throw out the dam techniques and methods type of thinking away ..... Just think and ask how do I get the pup to bite into me and push [that is if you do not want the pup to bite and pull ] ? There is no one answer : but I give a couple : as I wrote before use a flirt pole and bring the object onto you and as the pup hits for the bite [ timing is important and your body positions] absorb the bite as the rag is on you and give ground tothe pup by moving away from the bite as the pup in contacting you .Let the rope out and let the pup run . Don't let the pup pull the rag. have another rag on hand to stimlate the pup to bite and back and forth . Or attach a rag to you via velcro and when the pup bites you , you go away from the pup as the rag attached to the velcro on you and the rag seperates. You fleed from the pup , it did not bite and step back from you . Another approach : Use clothing that will seprate and let the pup have it as you step away from the bite . 30 years ago we used to mtie things to our bodies and whennthe pups came in for the bite we absorbed the bite like catching a ball , then immediately untied the knot and let the pup go have fun .. So we never ever ever let a pup bite and move away from us . We never ever gave the pup a chance to start doing that . Every bite was in essence a forward bite. No exceptional mystery I write here. It's simpke common sense : if you do want a behavior froma dog , then never let it happen . That simple ... Of course if you want the dog to pull on a bite .. that is ok too .. if that is what you want /accept [ I have no gripe with that ] . Then again , tie a tug up on a tree limb and let the dog pull on it all day , if that is what you want- that will teach a dog to pull back quite wll at that .
I know , dogs have styles and some might say it is a dog's instinct to pull . Maybe ... However , part of me says ..don't feed me that line because : we are always over riding a dog's instinct. Goodness what dog wants to walk beside you and in precision ? The most important aspect when it comes to behavior : the dog will do what works for them and aids them to acomplish their purpose or goal. Instinct or no instinct.. The dog will move into the bite just as assuredly than pull , if it learns and realizes , IMOp , that biting into someone serves it's prupose . Again , IMOp...
Don't ever forget how much and how fast a pup learns.. they learn every single moment...
by emoryg on 10 July 2019 - 15:07
by Centurian on 10 July 2019 - 19:07
My last post I did not go down this road .. but now that the gates have been open : I have no idea who is handling the pups and I don't want to know... But ..
Quite the contrary emoryg..... No that was not nice handling of the dog on the scruff of the neck lie that . Did the feelings of the puppies get hurt ? Some one tell me what that pup was thinking and feeling .. ?? I will with certainty tell you that this was not positve for the puppies , at least the way IMOp , I deem a postive encounter with puppies should be. From my point of view that is not the emotional state that I would ever work a pup or want a pup to be in !. They are not the feelings that I would want to elicit from the puppies. Not meaning that they definitely were , but remember puppies get impressions and imprinted from experiences... and I am not saying that this had an indelible lasting affect for the rest of their lives either.. but what for I ask ?
I have written as an opinion on the PDB : just because we can do something with a puppy does not mean that we have to or should do , that something. They are phenomenal pups ... but handled poorly. As an opinion , not the pups , they are wonderful , but what I saw on that video is upsetting . And I point out two features that occured for my rationale : The first , the person prompts the pups to bite him , then when one does he grabs it by the scruff , and I think the pup yelped , in order to stop the pup from biting [ I know , I know puppy teeth are incredibly sharp] . If you have to pull the pup from you by the neck , IMOp then you shouldn't let the pup bite you . That is incredibly unfair . You give the green light to the pup to bite , then you reprimand it , grab it by the scruff and make it yelp to stop biting. Wonderful , just wonderful. What is the reasoning , the point and accomplishment in doing that .. Someone , just explain the value and the reasoning for doing that with a pup to me . I am open to anything with a sound purposeful reason ... Yup , some people will think that is just great ..oh a pisser of a pup , yahoo .. Anyone ever did that to my pup ... Well I leave that quiet for now. Goodness , use velcro attachments and release an article as the pup bites it from you . ...... I am not impressed in the least . I am not impfessedc with videos. I make it a policy n3ver ever ever to demo my dogs [ unless I am helping someone with a problem via e mail ]. The pups are impressive but not what is being done ... I'm not impressed.
I once said this to a friend of mine that thought he knew it all . He had 12 week GS pup , exceptional puppy , just like what you saw with the mali pups. He was doing bite suit work with another helper as the dog was on leash with him. So he pumps the dog up , on line and simultaneously pats his rear whispering to the pup: " get him , get him get him ". The helper was pressing the pup . Not to mention the helper handled the dog rough as the dog was biting , not to much different from the video of the Malis . I said to him " Fred , don't work the dog like this " . And he mouthed off in disrepsect to me. I shut up ! After he left I said to his brother.." they don't know how to interact with this dog ' . I stated also " the dog has great potential but he did not know what he was doing to the pup. With his voice he was putting all the responsibility onto the puppy . Then I askedthe brother : " your 6 year old son , at his mental , emotional , physical maturity level would you send him into battle with a twenty year old ? Then why would you do this to a pup ,even if the pup looked and acted like Rambo , like your son ..WHY would you do it , for what purpose ? ". >>> Just because we can do something with a dog/pup that does not mean we should ....... [ or that it is best ] .
Second feature : the second other pup bit.. but take a look at how that pup is biting .. with the very very front teeth only and pulling awayas hard as it can . The handler is teachiungnthe pup that . that is not to be immediately constued as the style of the pup. If a giant was confronting you and you were bound- younwould pulling away from that emormous body , like the Empire State building , too ! And .. why was the pup biting like this ? I will let the other posters explain that or reply to that . For my personal liking... pushing , pulling .. put that aside for now.. I want any dog that I have doing protection work while biting , biting with a mouthful of a full bite and crushingly hard in the biting [ push or pull I am talking about 'the bite'] . There is much reasoning for this bite .. I do not require this of my puppies 8 weeks old or my dogs just for the sake of it or just because. I opt not to give a lecture about this type of biting [i.e. a full bite ] .
Emoryg .. Oh boy , oh boy ,I see dogs and ghe things that are happening much much differently
by emoryg on 11 July 2019 - 15:07
Centurian, it was over 35 years ago that I took on an appreciation and respect for other people’s methods of training. At one time, I believed that if it was not the way I was doing it, it must be wrong. Later, I realized it was not the wrong way, just their way. Many times I learned there was even a better way.
I have been training/imprinting puppies for years. I guess the biggest change was around 30 years ago when I started imprinting for bitework as well. I have a wonderful time bringing up puppies in that critical time period when the environment can and will have such a significant impact on their future. I probably imprint like most people. I may be a little different, in that I really push nosework and expose the puppy to specific odors that he may experience down the road. I also pressure puppies very hard in their bitework. They learn early that bitework is fun. They also learn how to use their own desire to dominate to help manage increasing levels of pressure while on the bite. I am not so much worried what the puppy may think of me when I stare him down, pinch on his muzzle, twist a fold on his flank or pop a whip on his thigh while he is biting. In just a few minutes we will once again be best friends. I am more focused on shaping the puppy’s behavior so that he understands that through his own power he can make the pressure stop. And though this is taught too many older dogs, it is at this imprinting stage when it can be called upon at anytime from there on out. It’s not unusually to see me walking around with puppies tearing into my legs and sometimes arms. I enjoy the spirit of a puppy destined to do bitework and heavily promote it.
What a wonderful opportunity to instill life lessons on a young puppy that he may be called upon to use down the road. Is there any better feeling than knowing that over several weeks you made more of an impact on a dog than any other time in his life?
by ValK on 11 July 2019 - 16:07
since pups at that age still have very little experience and acts exclusively as instincts dictate to them,
it gives very good picture of type of dogs, they will grow and accordingly do not waste an effort and time,
trying to steer that or that pup into something, to what they aren't predisposed from very beginning.
by Centurian on 12 July 2019 - 13:07
There is the exprression : " there is more than one way to skin a cat ". Yes , If anyone has tauted the notion that there is more than one way to teach a dog , that would be me. Often I have written that the dog dictates what we teach , how , when and where. Often I have written on the PDB the idea that people should get out of the thinking of : what technique do I use or what method to I use , before they get themselves into trouble .
However , in teaching a dog is communcation underlies everything as well as the relatioinship you develop or fail to develop with the dog - in a nutshell. Meaning that there is a difference using commone sense as opposed to being blantly stupid and that has nothing to do about this way or that a way one chooses to teach or interact with a dog.
If you want to teach a dog , or motivate a pup to bite a person with either equipment or without equipment .. if that is you goal ... then why when the pups does that behvior i.e bite , would you consider reprimanding the dog , correcting the dog, by grabing it on the back of the neck while on the bite and pulling it off ? After all , is that not the same that the dam does to discipline it's pups ? So ... this has nothing to do with one person choosing to teach one way and another person teachng another way . In plain English ... how stupid can someone be to tell the pup to bite and when doing so , discipline / correct that puppy . I am still waiting , as I am sure other readers , to understand the value , the purpose of having the pup bite you and then asserting your will over the pup , dominating the pup , disciplining the pup for something that it was cued and allowed to do . Requiring the dog to'out' even before it was taught via communication ' to out ' . For the rraders : there is a definitive differential between having Dominance over a dog [ and I do not mean rank or hierarchal status over a dog which we all must establish ] and Dominion. This type of dominance I refer to is, the expression of exerting your will over the dog such that you are either verbally or physically abusing the dog and being unfair . If you were teaching your son to fight and asked him to grab you or hit you , and when he did you stuck back and disciplined him .. would you call that fair and fun . Do you not think that is a contradictory mixed message ? Has nothing to do with teaching philosophy or style. No you dominated your son . Grabbing or hitting back has nothing to do with intention of rank status but more to do with to simply assert your self over your son. Ego .... Leave your ego and the projection of yourself out of the dealing with dogs .
I apologize for the harshness , but how for the life of me can I see someone do what I see in that video and think that it is OK to interact with a pup like this , is beyond me , personally .. It is not OK . I want the readers to fully understand the contradiction of what was asked of the pup and what the handler done as a result .This is not ok to be doing this with a puppy , IMOp. BTW rank status , respect , impulse control / self control is more easily and better developed by other ways.
BTW I abree with Valk : if the pup has ninnate , natural , genetically predisposed aggression traits , all that we need to do is channel the pup and bring out it's potential . Although Valk I do add , teaching by definition is the guidance and channeling of those expressed traits. So no matter how we view this , we are always in teaching /training a dog by affecting those expressions of the traits .
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 July 2019 - 15:07
by Centurian on 12 July 2019 - 16:07
This is not an opinion - Absolutely ... your evalutation is spot on - FACT ! I understand that all people are at different levels of learning and knowledge acquisition. However EB is 100% in FACT and correct.
The difficulty is when people claim to be high end professionals and they fall short making points [ I am not talking about the original/ first poster presenting the video ] . B.E ..... to add : The video of the two mali pups Ditto . One pup at the end of the bite and the other pup thoughout the bite is stressed . That is the reason for my pontification. I want people trying to better themselves and their dogs/pups to gain from the video and the commentaries. Try to understand , 30 years ago part of my learning also was by my mistakes and others mistakes too. The first time I worked a police dog I had a pair of jeans and a tank top .. the rookie police officer, as I was fleeing , let the dog go after me after I took 5 steps . My back was turned at step 5 -and the result was that I got bit in the butt. I did not put the blame on the rookie . I blamed myself because I had known in combat/ fighting you never ever take your eye off the opponent. So , we learn and that is what teaching dogs is about : bettering yourself and your dog - each becoming what we both can become . From that point on . believe me I never ever ever take my off the dog and I see even the slightest change in their eyes . The slightest pull or tensing of their lip and much much more !
The problem arises when someone , anyone thinks they know everything.. In my world : every single dog and handler team .... teaches me something new. I look at the dog -- what am I going to learn about him today Puppies and the dog in the first video , If you listen with your mind .. they tell you a tremendous amount about themselves.
EB --- again I am thankful for your post . Yes the dog in the firsvideo posted was stressed , because he was not ready for what was asked of it. [ they are connected together : the readiness and the state of stress are not separate and apart ] . Just like the mal pup was stressed not knowing the handler wanted it to out or what cue meant to stop biting him . The pup simply , '" did not understand " . In his mind : he was doing naturally , what a puppy does to other pupies .
EB- two thumbs up to you :- ) ........ [ BTW everytime I post the words get jumbled / changed while I hit ' submit' even after correcting text - so sorry .. ]
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 July 2019 - 23:07
I've shared this one before. Athos has a pushing bite. Unfortunately I had to fully retire him due to the built up scar tissue on his crushed trachea.
My Orlo son pushes and pulls at the same time. He's got a shitton of prey aggression and active aggression. Right now, he lacks the maturity but he's a very real dog and could be a very dangerous dog because he gives no fucks about the suit and there is too much conflict (just like what you can see in the first video, with one main difference, he's got full and crushing grips and maintains those grips). For him it's a very real situation and he fights the man. So right now I keep him off the suit and on keep him on the sleeve because he can win the sleeve and possess it. He's a Karn grandson alright (be very careful what you wish for. )
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