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by Gustav on 26 May 2019 - 11:05

Centurian, I agree with what you wrote, I could write volumes on my thoughts of the video also, I don’t because a lot of what I see can only be understood by experiences, and the sifting of thousands of dog’s behavior over the years to come to insightful reasons and probabilities of why and what the dog is doing. The reason I don’t go deeper is that without foundation experiences and applications, it won’t make sense or be understood by the novice or one/two dog person who has only trained/handled singularly.
Kinda like giving a person an algebraic theorem with only arithmetic as basis for understanding the thorem. Anyway, I think we all agree he is nice dog, and that in our individual hands would be somewhat different according to our abilities and his genetic makeup. And I think most people can understand that.

by Centurian on 26 May 2019 - 15:05

Gustav , I have been mulling overin my mind if I should address your last post. But as I often wrote , I do not feel right in my conscious to hold back .
Gustav , we need people like you , Duke , Apple , Blackmailiois , Hundmutter ...and many more [ I apologize for not typing everyone else worthy ] to shae ideas , thoughts , experiences and knowledge. It is OK for disagreement - but with disagreement knowing the rationonale for the disagreement and a further explanation to another point of view is the only way we can , and other people at any other level of undestanding an bewtter ourselves. Personally , I welcome and I enjoy [ as long as it is mannered ] for someone to disagree with me . For that excahnge in dialogue is the way that I can also grow , better myself and learn . As very knowledgable person-- you have much much to offer .. so ... I ask of you : don't hold back if you will no matter .....

As a vomment to everybody reading this thread : people make dog training complicated . The truth is - that is not in the very least complicated at all . I liken this to understanding legality . Lawyers - when they write a document they use all legalese fancy smanshy language. This is done on purpose because anything written in a legal document caould be written is simple English [ or your own homeland language] such that it is very very very easily understood. The lwayers make you beholdding to them , make you rely on them . The dog world .. is not at all different - that is the truth of ther matter. Fancy smanshy dog talk for most that cuases confusion and puts them darkness .

I often write : dogs are different people yet at the same time very very much like people. we are both social animals . We have thoughts , feelings , emotions , motivations and needs. In many respects we are no differenet . When I taught in my classes showed people that inherently they know what they need to know, to understand , to raise a dog. Of course they ar not as intelligent , cannot deductively reason , have different capabilities with hearing , sight , scent etc and are more instinctual in behavior .

So what is so hard to understand ? You know something .. some of the best dogg people I encountered , forgive me for saying this : they were not the brightest people. Yet they come across as if they know spome special , higher knowledge that has to be deciphered to be understood. If someone lies to you ...is it so difficult to understand that a person lies to you , that person will ie to you again ? What you find threatening , a stare by someone , someone getting into your personal space nose to nsoe [ in our culture ] , someone making a fist to you , pointing a finger , shouting at you , ... and how does respond to that ? Does someone defend themself and how . Why is the dog so much different in thiese respects such that we cannot understand.

Raising a dog and a child - is in essence no different: do not we teach the meaning of words to both , the rules to both , what is acceptable or not to both . Do we not discipline at times of need to both too ? Just because there is different terminology and lingo in the dog world cas ipposed to genral life , the dogs are not so different than we are that all the dog world for , trainng/teaching etc . Do you think that it has to be so much a military secret that requires such advanced knowledge to decipher what on earth is going on with that dog ? If you understand your self and you understand people .. then dogs are not that much different. Dogs have traits , personaltites , temperament that is not so much different, the same as , people. You can seee a tough guy , but why not this can be seen in a dog. Same traits that makes a tough gut makes a tough dog. You can see a person acting wacked out , yet when it comes to a dog we need fancy smanchy words to undertand this . We see people acting differently in quality and quantity with aggressiion but when it comes to dogs all common sense goes out the window. IMOp , people know a lot more about dogs than they realize they know. We see how peole have makups and how they behave , so also the same for dogs.

Something strange happens to humans as they mature.. For example fighting : when a person is a child or a youngster, just watch all their innate , natural movements as they play . Then somehow their innate natutral movements become repressed with mautrity .They lose those abilites to move naturally , innately. Yhery have to think about whatn they7 are doing , how to hit , kick , move etc,. I don't know everything about why this happens: There is a lot to this occurrance . Maybe this is the product of conformity. All I know is that years later , they lost the unhibited natural movements . In order to fight , they have to take lessons and re ' learn via ' martial arts.. We humans most often have to learn' how to fight andto defend ourselves' , no more instinct and naturalness - it all was lost. . What in the world happened that we now need to take lesson to learn how to fight . What ahppened to all that natural uninhibited movement and instinct ? WQhat happend thatb people havbe to learn how to interqct with a dog after raising a child ?

People ,as children, we learn visually . Then as we mature to adults , we tend to learn primarily by an audatory mode .. We have gotten so relied upon our cerebrum . All of a sudden we have lost something. This is the state of dealing with our dogs. We raised children ,. but we need a lesson in order how to raise and teach a dog. How ironic that we know what already We have lived , the informnation , that we need to knowto teach and understand a dog. - There is no magic , no higher leveof knowledge that you really need to know . Everyday of your life , a person , a dog is .... generally is the same..... This is not hard to understand the canines ...

by ValK on 26 May 2019 - 19:05

juno, what do you mean under "lack of excelling"?
he's not "glued" to your face during heel and don't do steps like horse in spanish walk :)

by Centurian on 27 May 2019 - 15:05

GS in KNVP .....
To begin I want to re second Duke's viewpoint about points and my previous comments. Maybe some one will re think about how , what and why they teach their dog. Sport .. is fine , nothing wrong with competition . But what is the value of all of that , if you cannot the same with your dog in real life . Besides , a title with points does not make , contrary to all the BS , a dog breed worthy . ? . However , there is also something to said about expecting and insisting the best performance of your dog no matter in every day life or sport.

In my area 17 years ago there was a police officer who backed up his convertable with his K9 in the back seat.. After backing up , he got out of the car to shut t he garage door . Oooops , his GS K9 saw a squiorrel and jumped out of the vehicle , ran after the squirrel and got killed by an on passing car. What happened _ the officer just said 'sit' to the dog. He forgot to say 'sit' followed by the word 'stay' as he had taught the dog.

Years ago I had a French Ring Brevet and 1 as well as Sch1 trained GS . One day we approached the end of a sidewalk , about to cross the street. As I startd to step off that curb , a car sped around the corner past a stop sign posted . I immediately stopped mself with my foot in mid step hanging on the curb . If I had not stopped AND my dog had not mainained perfect precision / body postition - we both would have been seriously injured. The dog would have been hit first.

When I taught classes no matter the handler of the dog , I insisted on exact precision and performance nothing less . First I explained to them : The amount of precision you have over your dog is correlated to how that dog much control you will have over the dog and how the dog will respond to you and perform. Additionally , if you want your dog to perform , act , in a certain way then you must in your mind believe and think that your dog is going to perform that way . ATTITUDE ! If we have the slightest thought of settling for mediocrity in our minds , the dog will and does know this .. and that is what you will get from your dog ..mediocrity . The worst part of mediocrityis : ... it can cost your life or your dog's life someday . The pobalbility may ver very very low , but the possibility always remains.

No, you don't need a dog looking upo at you in heel. As a matter of fact this is very very bad and in IMOP very very stupid and foolish . - these high end competitors should realize how many GS , in fact * , develop neck [ vertebral disk ] problems. Besides the dog is most often very very well aware of your body position and your prescence without even having to look at you ... and a lot more than you think !

Side note : for those that like to argue : Michael Ellis used to teach as far as I know , the dog in heel looking straight up without the head turn , as opposed to the neck up and cocked. I think , my suspicion is that he relaizes this too - I would have to ask him .. However , this head staight up for eye contact , IMOp is equally troublesome for the dog too. This is not natural anatomical position , and both manners of the dog looking up creates tremendous neck strain.

So . .. think about what you expect from your dogis my shared comment...

by Juno on 28 May 2019 - 11:05

Valk,

Yes, “he is not glued to my face and does not step like a Spanish walk”, but he can also be stubborn with the “aus”, not clean and also a little difficult to control when he is in drive but once he starts working he settles down and gets focused.

by apple on 28 May 2019 - 14:05

Valk stated, "its also can be an answer to apple in regard to cons of strongly embedded prey drive. from my experience it's quite noticeable the parallel and dependency between level of prey drive and threshold of emotional excitability, which very much impact dogs performance."

Again I think you oversimplify and are overly vague when discussing dogs. Highly defensive dogs with a low threshold for defense and low prey drive can display just as much "emotional excitability" as a high prey drive dog. It is accurate to say, as has been mentioned, the emotions for different drive states are different and they overlap as well. A good dog needs more than just strong prey drive. Part of the problem is that people with strong genetic prey drive dogs that have a low threshold, overbuild the prey by the way they train and don't put enough emphasis on control early in the pup's foundation. That is why each dog needs to be trained according to his genetics and the goals you have for the dog. Juno mentioned his dog doesn't have a focused heel and not a very clean out. He was training his dog in PSA as am I. I chose to put a lot of time into getting a focused heel and I correctly my dog very early to get a consistently clean out. That is in an effort to obtain more points at trial. Those choices do not change his genetics and make him a better or worse dog. It is a matter of goals and training philosophy with the dog you are working with. Many who compete in a sport be it a strictly human sport or a dog sport, generally want to compete to their highest genetic potential. Others just obtain titles, such as in KNPV and then sell the dog as a candidate for police work.

by Centurian on 28 May 2019 - 16:05

Apple ...
Impressive post... Quite noteworthy . Personally , Apple , I second what you write !! Nice commentary to share. Emotional states do change from one to the other , and they also can change in amounts very , very fast .

So I add to Apple's post : The changes happen literally like lightning . The nervous conductivity can happen faster than a blink of an eye. I said " lightning " .. Interestingly : in the understanding of acupuncture , there is reason to conclude that not only is the repsonse by electrical impulse transmission along nerves but also transmission via photon being transmitted . So ... Apple is correct : evey dog has to be trained in reference to who and what that dog is , as defined by it's genetics. I always said while I worked dogs for people , I better be able to respond to the dog instantaneously and that dog always dictates what I do or do not do .. in a blink of an eye.

I already talked about attention in heeling. But what I have found is that many people that train dogs or help people to teach their dogs , do not understand Attention nor do they undertstand what they should about control , what it is , and how you develop it . Anyone  can ask what my thoughts are and I will discuss tthis further . I forgo writing specifically here at this time.

What I will share is my rationale for that comment : 30 + years ago the theory and idea was : don't train your dog until about it is 6 months old - give your dog time to mature . 30 years ago I taught my dogs at 8 weeks old .. Back then the notion was not to put control on the dog early in the foundation work . 30 years ago , I had enough GS ready for Brevet and Ring 1 or Sch 1 [ actually three because we always trained our 1 as if we were going for the 3] by 12 months old. Why I shared that is because Ring sports for those that do not know , is a control sport whereby the dog wears no collar or leash. If the dog breaks the line of departure ,being off leash , before the judge signals you to send the dog down field for the bite , you lost all points for that exercise. Meaning : your dog is expected and you are to have 100% complete control of your dog at all times once you stepped onto that field. I started by teaching those  dogs as puppies , control ...

  The old theory that I frowned on , about placing the control on the dog ,  because it was easy to have developed control problems with your dog. They thought 30 years ago in their lingo ' you'll kill the drive of the dog with control " .   And .. I still see to this  day , that foolish notion still held to . Actually if done correctly , control can and will actually increase the dogs motivation and the dog will work better with you  , more efficiently/proficiently. That old way of thinking is so off base that it  is not even funny. Same as I had wrote about ' drive promotion ' which on top of the lack of teaching control in the dog ,  exacerbated the future control problems !!

The problem is people don't know the how , when ,where and why control should be undertaken . That is the problem , point blank. The how when why and where in the training , is different for different dogs. That is related to what Apple wrote about too . Also .. this is the problem that ad nauseam talk about in reference to methods and techniques. Those so called techniques and methods for all dogs, will cause problems . There is no boiler plate way to teach dogs. And often this is how experienced helpers and decoys teach . Hmmm , " we do things this way"- the minute I hear that, I always turn and walk away . Even if I am in a bank .. I will walk away.

Old ideas die hard. Old ways of talking about and interacting with the dog , die hard. This is not hard .. as I wrote people make dog training so mysterious .. it is not ! For example , I taught my dog to bite with all the skill and manner that I want it to. I see the dog has the motivation and ability to bite , when , where , how I want it to . So now the dog has to be balanced with what has already been taught , or at the same time it is  being taught something .
. This could be at 16 weeks old 20 , weeks old . Now comes the time for balance . Many people do not know how , when , why we balance behaviors . This IMOP is very very very IMPORTANT : to Balannce the dog in behaviors .  Putting on control correctly - this is not going to kill drive. WHY .. because at 16 weeks old a dog will bite atoy , yes ? Also after haven held a toy in it's mouth , a dog will let it out of it's mouth yes, Of course the dog doesn't hang on to it forever .. So , that is the key ,right there. The dog does that behavior naturally . If I see a dog do what I want it to , then I tell the dog that this is an advantage to him .. literally and figuratively . Dog drops the toy , I reinforce that behavior. Later on , I add a cue. But also I prevent anticipation by not reinforcing if the dog lets go before I cue it . A dog comes to you / a dog goes away from you , a dog barks and a dog keeps quiet , they jump , sit , lay down , stand and smell . I write many many many  times and I know some high enders get pissed off at me , but just about everything we so call teach a dog , is something that they do naturally . They like to make you think they accomplished some secret  outstanding feat that only they are capable of  .  So I do not wait until I get on a training fireld to ' teach ' my dogs. As a matter of fact for the Brevet I can almost train every exercies in my house and also many of the IPO exercises [ or back yeard even before I go to a training field. My biggest biased , pet peeve, is : a dog not cleanly and immediately outing.

by Juno on 28 May 2019 - 17:05

I agree with both Apple and Centurian. If the dog has the proper genetics the rest is up to the handler to make the most of it. I openly admit I let my dog get away with a lot of things while he was growing up and because of his genetic makeup that ended up working against me. I have only myself to blame as mentioned before. I can use the excuse of being very busy (which I am) and not having enough time nor patience (the latter being most definitely true) but deep down I know I could have done a better job handling my dog considering how closely bonded he is to me.

by duke1965 on 28 May 2019 - 17:05

Juno , that is called a learning processWink Smile

by Juno on 28 May 2019 - 17:05

Yup and missed opportunities..


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