Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 5

koots I like your points they are truet but they do not upset what I am saying. You have said:"Take my present dog, as an example. He has good prey and defence, with leaning toward defence/social aggression. After my 'sport' training foundation in bite, grip and targeting since he was a pup, the first time he was confronted with the helper he wanted to go after the man (there was no bite, just a run-away by helper). "

You have done what I call parallel training. You may have done that inadvertently. Yes!!!! absolutely! You can train the dog to do sport and pp at the same time and not to do sportism and not to have dog with fabric fetish. And yes genetic helps. But most dogs on LE do not have nor need genetics to attack/naturally bite a man without training to be good or even excellent LE dog. That is an excuse. There are many PP/LL dogs who do not have genetics to bite a man without training. It is not that hard at all to train such a dog,.... if he has all other genetic attributes necessary for being PP or LE dog.  

 But back to training. When you are working with sport dog and want to eliminate fabric fatish -fixation on equipment, it is necessary to do it in 2 separate venues.  NOWHERE  have I said that sport dog cannot be protection or LE dog. As a matter of fact, I have said that just about all dogs in LE were trained with sportism and it is done through channelling from prey to defense but that method had fabric fetish baggage.  What I am describing is a method where the dog does not have baggage as a linearly trained sportism dog does. Most dogs which I have retrained from sport to street so to speak were sport dogs. Yes, IMO best is to start with the green dog and train a PP/LE dog from get-go and not to use equipment at all IN THE PROTECTIO TRAINING  I( FYI that does not mean tha I do not use any equipment at all!!) . Most dogs are sport dogs and thus we need to use something else. It is parallel training. You can train a dog to be sport dog and he can keep to be sport dog and then AT THE SAME TIME - BUT in a different venue -  using different decoy, area and sometimes even different commands to train PP/LE from get go using no equipment  for protection bitework and from get-gothen  you are setting default to teach the dog to target man. In the dog's mind that is separate from the sport - thus it is not sportism. It is separate just like sit is different then down.  

 Look sportism is going from toy to sleeve to channeling from prey to defense. And it is all about sleeve - booty all the way. And that booty fixation then is a baggage FOR THE REST OF THE LIFE OF THE DOG.  

 Parallel dog training involves 2 separate unrelated training approaches which may look the same but in the dog's mind they are different. And that is iportant! One is sport from toy to sleeve ( or suit) and then from suit to man and the other one is PP training where PP goes from a negative challenge ....to aggression and it from get-go targets the man and it never teaches the dog to bite sleeve and then not to bite the sleeve and bite the man like sportism does. During street protection to such dog the sleeve is only an obstacle which the man who is his enemy is wearing. Where in sport the man is his friend who has his toy.  Really it is not as difficult as I with my clumsy English is explaining it here. But it is real. 

 

 

Hans, opinions and ideas are fine, some things can be looked at or interpreted in various ways, and some are not,

simple example, someone can argue that a rock sinks when thrown in the water (when not freezing or undeep), but reality will tell you if you try a thousend times, the outcome will not change

so in dog breeding, training and testing there are also variable and stable factors, if someone wants to debate the stable factors I am free to call it what I want, and dont care so much if you agree with that or not

some things you say on here I agree with, as you know, lot of stuff you write I dont, so I can respond to that on a public forum

finally I agree that, when someone does something for a long time doesnot mean he is doing it right, that goes for the both of us  

Vito, good post on page four!

Duke1954 Some rocks do not sing but float. Just so you know.

  https://imgur.com/gallery/5ljyLir

 

Also, very small rocks of any kind will float because they can not break the tension forces of the surface of the water.

Smoke a pipe on it brother. 

Prager, I believe your fault is to believe

IPO = sportism (I still don't like this word creation)
= not good (in your words detrimental) for "real work"

In my opinion every single dog is the result of it's genetics, followed by training.
In a life threatening situation a dog will follow genetics, not training.

That said a genetically civil dog will bite, a genetically "prey driven only" dog may run, whereas a genetically prey driven, but aggressive dog (a lot of Mals, some GSDs) will bite, too- different breed, different genetics...

There are that many different dogs outside (percentage of civil drive/aggression/prey/hunt/food drive..whatever) , that you can't tell people "train civil and the outcome will be a perfect police dog"...
or
train IPO and you will have problems later on...-
impossible.

In my heck of the woods the knowledgeable trainers and decoys make use of genetically given drives, they don't care about your wisdom.

Main thinking over here: Why train a dog in prey only when it works better in civil drive? Wasted time...

Perfect training = making use of genetically given traits, later on supporting the less developed traits - just because a dog backed up by several drives is more stable...( difficult to translate for me, I hope you get the main idea ).

And after all just for the record: IPO and breedsurvey (lately followed by the newly introduced temperament test) were NEVER established to test the ability for police work, but for breedworthiness of a universal working dog.
The GSD is no policedog, but some specimen should be able to do this job-
big difference.

Forgot to mention: whenever a dog '"fails" it's either lack of genetics or lack of training, but this seems to become a never ending story...

Susie: I believe your fault is to believe?? What does that mean is that a riddle.
Susie, have no clue what you are talking about and how does it relates to what I am saying. But I try:
1/FYI IPO does not (equal "=") sportism as you insure, I have no clue where you got that.
Sportism is the development of a PP/Le dog through sport training.

2/Then you say:"Why train a dog in prey only when it works better in civil drive? "
FYI prey and civil is not exclusive . Prey and defense are separate drives and they both could be civil. Yes prey can be civil and defense can be civil.

3/andf then you say.:"and after all just for the record: IPO and breed survey (lately followed by the newly introduced temperament test) were NEVER established to test the ability for police work, but for breed-worthiness of a universal working dog.
The GSD is no police dog, but some specimen should be able to do this job-
big difference."
Prager; Breedworthiness of what? You say; of "universal" dog. I use word versatile dog. Of course one of the abilty of this "universal' dog is to be a police dog. That is undividable part of what we strive for by proper breeding. proper GSD MUST BE ABLE TO BE A POLICE DOG besides many other things. Thus it is not true that as you say:"only some specimen should be able to do this job- "That attitude is exactly the path to destruction of the breed,...as we see it today. I am sorry but I STRONGLY disagree. to this attitude which is stemming from useless show dogs.

My experience with the GSD is mostly running them in circles and looking pretty.

I only did this as a hobby, never top of the top. just fun and relaxation.

I did however manage to get exposed to many aspects of the dog world over a few decades.

anyone who believes there is some kind of "secret sauce" or something that military trainers, with dogs responsible for safety of thousands and thousands of soldiers from all nations, all over the world, don't know about, well all I can say to you is that I once bought a "Queen Bee" Doberman from House of Hoytt.

take from that what you will and learn at your own expense.

 

the dog that will be is produced in the whelping box.

there ain't no secret sauce that can overcome this.

jmo,
Rik
 

Susie please show me the new IPO temperament test. maybe there is something here. I am not trying to be negative. Are you talking about the test for BH?

We talked about the temperament test on this forum around 2 years (?) ago - just take a look.
There are even lots of videos online...it's not new.

In case you really believe every GSD should be able to perform as a police dog you totally missed the Intention of this "versatile" breed.

Sorry in case my post looks "cryptic" to you...maybe others are able to understand me...