Limited Registration Discussion - Page 5

Due diligence is fine, but only a few can do due diligence. Even if I do have the ability to do due diligence, how do I do due diligence on pedigrees where dogs are 1/2 world away or are now dead? The Sport-"Test" should be THE due diligence so that decades later when the dog passed, I should be able to look at such dog or look at the dog's titles of dog who lives 1/2 world away from me and see what is he or she all about, rather than relying on hearsay I should have some objective measure which for perpetuity the "sport-"test" should provide.
GSD is the most or one of the most popular and recognized breeds. Why? Because of the traditional reflection of the standard in the actual characteristics of the breed. However, sport these days is not concerned with these characteristics described in GSD standard but instead, it is singularly interested in winning which has little to do with the versatility of the breed and its ability to perform work the wah working dog "on a street" should.
The bifurcation of the breed into working x sport GSD ( I am not even talking about show dogs) is obvious when you realize that majority of the most excellent LE and pp dogs are dogs which failed sport. There must be evaluated in form of test or sport which unites this split. This evaluation needs to be universal so that this evaluation becomes THE due diligence. The SchH used to provide such due diligence however now we have to read between the lines because the point gathering in sport is more important than true workability of the dog.
IMO the sports test needs to be the baseline of the breed, the necessary minimum, and not a part of the jigsaw puzzle.
DEFENSE
As far as defense goes including SV sport, or whatever it is called these days, I am not aware of sport which would test truly the defense. None. Yes, some competitors realize that dogs look more serious when they are more defensive and they push their dogs a little into defense drive, but IMO all sport in all aspects are based on prey. I am fully recognizing the importance of prey, and I may be wrong, but I do not know of sport which would have one exercise devoted to defense, natural protectiveness of the handler. Before you mention KNPV object guarding, let me mention that yes KNPV dog has to guard the object but even that is prey based exercise, based on the dog natural ability to protect his booty,..... thus again prey.
On top of it, all tests involving defense, like stick hits are eliminated because of AR - so that they would not sue SV for cruelty. So SV goes from ratan sticks to padded stick which is used to hit less and less to eventually not hitting at all, but are only waved over top of the dog and then the SV caves and as I understand it opted for no stick or hits what so ever so that the optics to snowflakes do not offend their delicate sensitivities. When is SV doing to stand it's ground based on common sense rather then being terrified that they may get sued by AR wackos?

Joan
I'd be interested in seeing your puppies pedigree if you'd be willing to post it. They sound interesting and I'm always one to like to know which lines/dogs bring certain things to the table. Im no expert on pedigrees or breeding, but I do my share of learning from those that do, and as a buyer every now and again, knowledge is essential
TIA

Re: Joanro's comments that SchH score would never be a barometer for her to breed by, yet many people do, Malcolm Willis, Ph.D in genetics cited a study in his book, "The German Shepherd Dog-A Genetic History" done in 1979 that supported heritability based on schH score is very low.

Pragr, that was a GREAT post!!! You told it like it is and it was refreshing to read the FACTS concerning the testing and evaluation/ selection based on scores.

.......

Vito, which of my pups pedigrees...the current litter? ( Which are all spoken for at this time) If yes, here it is...let me know if these are thats what you meant.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=1848431&mother=2375856

Apple:, Malcolm Willis, Ph.D in genetics cited a study in his book, "The German Shepherd Dog-A Genetic History" done in 1979 that supported heritability based on schH score is very low.


Very interesting that a study was actually done, and came to the same conclusion that many of us have observed first hand.

Vito Andolini:
I'm curious. If you don't use food or a toy reward, what is your method? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'd just like to know. If you're simply training pets, I'd understand, as you aren't concerned with how it looks, as long as it is correct. I assume you are doing sport as you're a breeder, right?

Hans:
I will start to answer your question with a question if you do not mind. Originally why did man have dogs? The answer is to perform a work for us. Dog and man were part of the team with common goals where one worked with and for the other. The dog thus needed to work for the man and with the man. Does sport these days supports such concepts? Is it about the enjoyment of work stemming from the work itself where the dog was allowed to work and the work itself was a reward. Where did this concept go? No! Instead, I am being ridiculed when I mention that praise and pet is or should be the ultimate reward the dog should get that is when we know how to get there. The argument is that such reward and motivation is not strong enough for the dog to work for. I am not against toys and such similar type of reward, but these days they are the ONLY approach to train the dog anything. Unfortunately the sport today is not using man-dog reward approach where the relationship of dog-man is a relationship of a team and not one where the man is toy provider and/or of food Pez dispenser because it is actually easier to make the dog perform circus tricks for food and not because there is a relationship between man and dog as it was for thousands of years.
My writing is above is so esoteric to today's trainer that most have no idea how to get to such man-dog team relationship and from such ignorance they choose to ridicule such concept which was so common all the way from caveman through thousands of years of shepherding to recent and even present natural protectors of the estate and LE and PP dogs.
No wonder I am being called iconoclast.

Prager,
I don't think you can objectively demonstrate that the majority of excellent LE and PP dogs are dogs that failed in sport, but I get your point. I'd say most good police departments look for green dogs that have not had any sport training. Many KNPV dogs go on to be trained as LE dogs. The better ones aren't podium dogs, but do obtain a PH1. It is true that in PSA, people get unregistered KNPV Mal X's and they try to title them in PSA, but sometimes can't maintain the control to obtain a title because the dogs are so tough, because genetically they are police dog material. So KNPV must be doing something right and the SV has been doing it wrong for a long time.

Hans,

I don't think anyone is denying the fact that the "sport" is watered down. Everything in society has been watered down. "Making it easier for SL to title" etc. I don't think anyone on here will argue that, and that's a topic in itself.

You stated that people realize that Defense looks more serious and train that way, which is true. The point I tried to make earlier , you just summed up. Handlers and trainers utilizing drives. Tapping into what is there. Just because someone uses a ball in obedience, doesn't make an impact on bitework. Doesn't mean you can't work the dog in a balanced way in C.

I don't think all of the exercises are considered prey. The transport and courage test are what? Sure, you may train for these using prey. Start with short distances, helper backing up, etc, and many people do little actual courage tests in training. Why? Reduce injury, helper doesn't want to buy beer if he's taken down, helper isn't comfortable/able to, etc. In a trial, the dog see a different picture depending on the level of the trial. We've all seen plenty of trials, in person, on video, etc....we all notice the speed at which a dog comes in, whether he gathers, launches without hesitation, full grip, shallow, slips off, ducks under the sleeve, and when they do duck, how many of them sit there with that scared ass look as the helper re-engages, etc?

I'm not saying they are the toughest tests in the world and other sports don't have harder tests, but I would not say it is all prey. Yes, there are things that could be done to test dogs a bit harder, but most would require a helper/Decoy to try to stay uniform for every dog and that isn't possible. After all, this is a competition, and people deserve a level playing field.

And that is why LR should be looked into further. 😉

Hans,
I didn't start training yesterday, myself. When I started, there were no balls, food, etc. It was all verbal praise and a pat on the side. I don't think today's training is that far removed. We still have markers, praise and reward. The only difference is that the dog gets paid. The verbal praise is still there and you still give the ole pat on the side. Sure, he was to perform work for us. Still is. He's more eagar now. How did everyone teach the retrieve back in the day? You know as well as I do, most weren't using verbal praise the whole time.

Apple, I sell dogs to LE as part of my business. And the fact is that titled dogs - especially the higher titled dogs are detrimental to the LE dog's performance. The green dogs for LE are not untrained dogs as you state. Those dogs are unfinished dogs. No ofrnse but most police dept would not know how to train a totally untrained dog and also totally untrained 1.5year dog is a neglected dog and not a green dog. Gren dogs are usually dogs who failed in sports selection and potential as future top sports dogs due to usually high natural protectiveness.Also I awas not talking about KNPV on my mind as much as I am talking about SV type scheme. Yet KNPV is also all prey and most of them will fail simple Chicago police test.