by benzi on 31 August 2018 - 16:08
by joanro on 31 August 2018 - 16:08
I don't dispute your claim that it might be familial: except...how many dogs have died suddenly supposedly of bloat? No post mortems to confirm. My bet is hemangio killing dogs that owners believe is bloat...afterall, the symptoms are similar when the mass is at critical point and dog is bleeding out. So there likely more dogs not in those " families" which are not considered in the 'stats'.
My husky hybred who bled out when liver hemangio ruptured when he was 8 yo, was not nuetered, and the female was not spayed till she was past two...I had to get her healthy enough before she could under go surgery.
The other two husky hybreds were not nuetered either, they were 15 years old when the tumors developed in their sinuses.
In fact, the only husky/ wolf hybred I owned that I had to have nuetered was one who had prostetitis that was resistant to treatment. He was three before he had to be castrated and he did not develop hemangio and was the longest lived, at sixteen and a half years old.
So I don't believe the statistics ...unfortunately, the statistics are very easily manipulated to fit the narative of " researchers" or veterinarians...just as drug companies manipulate stats to promote their products.
I'm skeptical because real life does not reflect their " statistics".
by TIG on 31 August 2018 - 19:08
Joan I can not dispute your experience wh is what your thoughts are based on as mine are based on my experience BUT a couple of things to note.
As I stated earlier disease incidence expression and heritability can vary w the breed. You were talking about crossbreds w little to none linebreeding I suspect. I was talking about purebred GSDs wh is what this discussion was initially about.
I hear your comments re undiagnosed deaths but my understanding is that hemangiomas and bloat have radically different presentations. Can not say that personally since thank God I have not had any incidences of bloat but comes from reading & friends.
And yes statistics can be manipulated and studies provide conflicting reports but there have been a # of studies inc a retrospective one looking at the records of 90,000+ dogs that show definite links to neutering and stunning increases in the incidences of cancer inc hemangiomas. This gives a brief summary of some https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/three-reasons-to-reconsider-spayneuter/ But so you know my prejudice I believe we were given reproductive organs for a reason and we need the hormones they produce. Since I have never had a problem controlling my dogs reproduction most of mine stay intact as long as possible.
Finally my interest in longevity came in the 70s. While I had primarily German bred dogs I played in the AKC world since that is all there was. So I knew a lot about American lines and they were even then starting to have longevity problems. The Scorpio line carried the death factor (& still does I think). 1/3 died b4 8 mo another third b4 2 ys and the rest u got what u got. (Btw bloat & torsion big part of this but other stuff too) But who cares if u could finish & breed them young u got to move on to the next winner & his trophies & ribbons . For the poor pet owner oh well sell them another. The problems came from a # of factors I believe some of wh we definitely r seeing in the European dogs today. First early maturity does seem to be linked to younger death. Old and slow good motto. Slow to mature is better. When I got into the breed in the early 60s a dog considered mature was 5 - 7 yrs old or older. Today that is considered a senior. Think about it we r a working breed for Pete's sake. Would a shepherd invest all the work in training a good herding dog for only a couple brief years. Hell no. My long coat was still herding at 14. But in the show ring people want early wins and in the trial arena we push dogs at younger and younger ages then we combine this in both worlds by only breeding to young podium winners - further restricting an aleady limited genepool. Then there is a tendency to ignore health issues and since we are line or inbreeding on those winners the health problems become intensified often occurring at younger ages. It is a recipe for disaster. And on top of that we have increasing environmental issues one of wh is the overarching push to neuter everything that comes straight out of the Peta world since their avowed and stated aim is to eliminate companion animals
Whoops got on my soap box but longevity intersects with many complex issues. So back to my initial point for all of us. We can solve this together. Participate, pay attention, educate yourself and share what you learn and debate and challenge as Joan & I are doing because no one person has the answer.
by susie on 31 August 2018 - 19:08
by TIG on 31 August 2018 - 20:08
by Sunsilver on 31 August 2018 - 22:08
Tig, I SO agree about the longevity! (The rest of your post, too...)
Yes, have seen it happen during my lifetime! I have been fortunate that only my first GSD had to be PTS before the age of 10, and that was due to debilitating arthritis in her spine blocking the nerve signals to her hind legs. The front end still wanted to keep on going, which made it hard to let her go.
Have actually had people ask me 'what's your secret' re. the longevity of my dogs?
NO secret folks, that's the was it USED to be!!
Research has been done on short lived giant breeds like Danes and wolfhounds to try to find the reason for their heartbreakingly short lifespans.
Guess what? They concluded it's genetic, primarily due to TOO MUCH INBREEDING!!
Edit: this thread has sent me down a rabbit trail, looking for proof of the above. More later, but this article certainly backs up what Tigg said about cancer and neutering: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0061082
by TIG on 01 September 2018 - 02:09
Actually Sunny I am not a subscriber to the theory that all that is wrong in purebred dogs can be laid at the door of inbreeding. Linebreeding and inbreeding sets types, traits and even sometimes new breeds. Hambeltonian was the fountainhead of Pacers. I have like a 16 gen pedigree on him and you would be stunned on the level of inbreeding (NOT linebreeding) that created him. Look at the founding dogs on our breed. As always it is more complex than condemning one mechanism. It is about judicious chooses and attentive selection.
More later just given a hot pizza and on my way to a friends house.
by Bevsb on 01 September 2018 - 23:09
by Hundmutter on 02 September 2018 - 07:09
Those you have, Bev ! Here's hoping she comes through this, that the fact of it being 'subcutaneous' makes for a less devastating outcome than the bleeding into the intestinal cavity that some of us have referred to. All best wishes,to dog and owner. Do keep us informed on how this goes, and thanks for giving everyone more information, and getting the discussion going so TIG, Joan, and others could contribute so much; I, too, wish more funding & research was going into this than eg DM (although over here we have the great Dr Sargan who is very interested in the topic).
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