Czech/DDR Good VS Bad? - Page 6

@Jessejones:"That is what I’m trying to understand. Hektor was so long ago...around 120 years ago, or so."

Hans: Look the best way I can explain it is that you can try to look at bloodlines as if they would be different breeds. Let says Yellow labrador is going to be labrador retriever if you breed it 120 years or 2. As long as you breed yellow lab to yellow lab you will be getting yellow labs. OK?
So now I can play with the bloodlines and let say I want Yellow lab retriever (YLR) to acquire protectiveness, so I breed him with GSD who is more protective then YLR. Now I have a mix of lines YLR and GSD . Now, what will happen? Adds are that some pups will look like GSD some may look like YLR and some ( probably most) will look like a mix of the two. Now, remember I want to have YLR with more protectiveness. So I should get and thus I am looking in the litter for a pup which looks like YLR but is also protective. If I find 1,2 or 3... i take them and breed them to YLR and always am selecting a pup which looks like YLR and has protectiveness of GSD. If I start losing protectiveness then I breed again to GSD.
Some may ask, why to do this and not just produce YLR. First, you get outcross( hybrid vigor) and such dogs are healthier and more resilient. Also and mainly I may have done so because somebody commercially wanted have many dogs which look like YLR but are more protective. So I as a commercial breeder have provided it by using these 2 breeds/bloodlines characteristics in one dog. However now I want to go back and again produce dogs with characteristics of YLR. So whatever I have I will breed to YLR for 2,3,4... generations and soon, usually as soon as in 2 generations, I will again have dogs which are more and more resembling YLR. However, if I disregard breeding in lines and as some breed what I call goulash and keep mixing YLR and GSD and Chocolate and black Labrador retriever. Then they will lose consistency and ability to predict what they are going to get especially if they would like to get something new or better.I mean CONSISTENTLY BETTER. This is what breeding in male bloodlines it is all about; consistency and predictability and improvement. Also if I know what I am going to produce i can improve what I am producing. If I breed goulash as far as bloodlines goes then I am stuck or am progressing very slowly if at all. So now you should understand that if I breed 2 dogs from second line same as if I breed two YLR I know what I will get even though I am doing it for 120 years.

ValK I totally agree with you except I do ot understand why would you not understand why it would "not work in a commercial environment". As a matter of fact, that is where it works fantastically because such breeding gives you superb predictability of what you will produce. Which commercial purposes - like breeding for LE is of paramount importance.

 none of listed by you lines was established to produce "nice doggy". every and each line did began for a strictly described efficient and practical working purpose. the world has changed since then and so did societies. seems like in 60s - 70s GSD breed took trend to become rather symbol of prestige than practical working dog breed. the mass consumers wasn't interested in work qualities of dogs for useful applications in day by day life but only as nice, easy to handle, soft personality companion dogs with noble looks.

there were a few societies, which was for some time isolated from those changes and for several decades did still viewing purpose of service dog breeds as it was established from very beginning. but not anymore.

as long as average John and Mary, with little knowledge about breed's purpose and absolute absence of knowlege how to train and handle the dog, would be willing to spend $1000+ to buy GDS puppy, breeders will breed type of GSDs suitable for such buyers. established dog's name had become usable for marketing purpose but  temperament's (qualities) selection done to satisfy mass market demand. LE and special purpose are too narrow, niche market, to have any impact on overal trend.

if someone will dig into pedigree of show line dogs, there obviously will be found ancestors from all mentioned by you lines. but comercial breeding approach did washed out everything in these dogs, what would even distantly bear a resemblance to their founding ancestors.

Thanks Prager for that explaination.

When you write you are breeding in Male Bloodlines...are you also choosing the female according to her (similar or the same) male bloodlines?

Or, is „any“ female used that has complementary conformation/temperament to the male stud...for whatever your goals for the offspring are?

And, when is inbreeding considered too much? Like the example dog that Duke gave:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5466-ingo-von-rudingen

Again, these are just general questions from someone that doesnt know a lot about breeding (me!) and I appreciate folks kind of coming out on a limb to answer. I guess every breeder has their „secret sauce recipe“. With some truths being a constant Leitfaden.

Valk, makes sense. Whatever the market dictates will be the most prevalent. Surely there are still pockets of people breeding for other goals too. But, in this day and age where everything is getting exponentially more expensive...from training to buying good dogs, to vet costs, food, and property values for space....not many people have the money or time (!) for prolonged (over many generations of dogs) and knowledgeable/professional breeding kennels - as were in the past. And government sponsored ones in some eastern European countries in the second half of the last century. IMHO.

I love that photo chart of the Czech/DDR lines you posted Prager.
Do you have the link to where I can find a larger photo to see it in detail? I‘ve googled it but only find fuzzy pics.

Jessie, government's "sponsorship" is quite exaggerated remark.
dogs was extremely small fraction of utter program of national defense/security and in part of ideological work among civilian population through paramilitary organizations.
amount of dogs, bred in framework of mentioned program, was absolutely miniscule in comparison to amount yearly pumped in the West by civilian breeders.
but even with such low output in breeding the advantage was in absence of market and accordingly lack of demand for purebred GSDs. in breeding lasted only dogs highly suitable for necessary purposes for those, who uses them. dogs which fail just did disappeared without any traces and/or leaving any their print on following generations.

Stud dog in the Netherlands  van Goghland  kennels I will follow this one and how many studs het get in the Netherlands and wich quality kennels gonna use him . One thing he is good looking.... no IPO certification yet?
 

https://nl.working-dog.com/dogs-details/3074149/Glenn-z-Meridolu

 

so black malinois, this I dont understand, why go to czech and buy a dog with pedigree full of west german lines, that can be found in every country of the world,not saying that is not a good dog, as I dont know, but, balko, over jimmy on fathersside, and gringo, sirk von belchen on motherline, is not something you need to travel far for to find. so I would say this dog is Czech mostly by location  of birth

 

Duke...

UUUHHHH not for me personal I,m not interesting in Eastern or Czech dogs can find everything what I went don,t need them .....IF I,m in the market for a GSD I will never go for some eastern lines, you missed the ironic point....

I,m only interesting if some quality breeders will use this dog in the Netherlands and I know the answer already......because that eastern lines are not so popular here over all those years

Enneh I will never go for the looks for a workingdog only... I don,t care about.., if he is healthy have total packet what I need as a workingdog I,m happy

@BlackMalinois

so only Dutch dogs, bred under KNPV standard, should be considered worthy of  title "real working dogs"?
like this one, real dutch police dog in real police street work :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQZwgVHejiw

That's some funny chitt, right there, Marcella! Lol. That guy was even slapping the bad asz knpv Mal in the face, playing with the dog !
Then the " handler" had to use a breaker bar to get the big bad knpv dog off the guy's pant leg. Dog was playing tug with the guy's pants! And had to wait till the guy was walking away from him before handler sent him to grab the pant leg cloth. So, Marcella, tell us what your Dutch knpv dogs do when the guy does not have cloth for the dog to play with?

marcel, that is my point, you are not paying attention, that dog from Czech has same bloodlines as the dutch bred GSD, so you are blabbering obout eastern lines, when you dont even know what you are looking at