Czech/DDR Good VS Bad? - Page 5

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Prager

by Prager on 02 September 2018 - 15:09

Joanro:
Prager, your attempt at insulting me, only exposed your hypocracy...male line, that's what you've been touting ad nauseum. Those males must be bred to a female to produce the next generation....you select the named sire and exclude the dam he is paired with ...generation after generation..
Hans:
Nobnody is insulting you. I leave insults to you.
But to the point. I have said it many times and I say it again . Nobody is excluding any females. OMG! THOSE FEMALES ALSO HAVE MALE LINE. Don't you get it. I totally agree with valK of perception, thus if you agree with him you must agree with me.

As far as susie goes anybody can say that something is not scientific. But where is the proof? Breeding male lines is totally scientific you just do not understand it. That is quite obvious. Also  All this is true for all GSD not just Czech or DDR as Susie seems to indicate.

As fas as Jiri goes I do not understand what you mean that the results are one in a life time. He (and and an innumerable number of breeders) bred successfully literally thousands of dogs and results consistently lead to improvement that is what drive promoters WG lines like you nuts. Maybe you should try to understand it about it before you may ad-hoc arbitrary statements that breeding in male lines is not scientific.

Prager

by Prager on 02 September 2018 - 15:09

ValK I totally agree with you except I do ot understand why would you not understand why it would "not work in a commercial environment". As a matter of fact, that is where it works fantastically because such breeding gives you superb predictability of what you will produce. Which commercial purposes - like breeding for LE is of paramount importance.
Prager

by Prager on 02 September 2018 - 16:09

I would like to say that it is silly to suggest that I am the creator of this logical, scientific, genetic approach to breeding or that somehow I am promoting "my" idea. I am not that good and the system was developed many years before I knew which way is up. What baffles me is the resistance to clear logic of such scientific genetic approach. I am not trying to convince any staunch detractors of this well-known approach to the breeding of anything here. All I am merely posting here for those who would like to learn it and benefit from it for themselves and for the sake of the breed.

 Here is how the system works. 
You have outstanding male and there were only about 5 or 6 of them in the history of gsd and they became for reason or another famous thus everybody wanted to breed to them that is condition 1/
Codition2/ . People wanted to breed to such dog because they wanted to reproduce such a famous dog. Some dogs which were namely :
1st line was started 1900/01 SGR Hektor von Schwaben line is believed to be mostly gone but recently V54 BSZS 2009,    UNIVERSALSIEGER Javir vom Talka Marda generated and promoted this line once agin and triggered great interest in this 1st line.
2 Hettel v Uckermark
3 Klodo v Boxberg
4 Utz vHouse Schutting
5 Rolf Osnabruckerland
6. Cir z Vrtovske doliny
  produced themselves and fit into additional conditions when are.
The condition 3/ was that this progeny, males, and FEMALES ( emphasis on FEMALES is specifically mentioned for Joanro:) ), again produced the characteristics of the founder.
condition 4/ this production of these desired characteristics must have happened for some generations to come. Because of all these "conditions", these characteristics became very dominant and expressed outwardly ( in phenotype). As matter of fact, they became so dominant that they can not be bred out of the GENOTYPE. There are tremendous benefits to such fact. If we breed in specific line for 3 or more generations these dominant traits will surface and will show or in another word they will be part of the phenotype( Phenotype is a subsection of phenotype which will show itself to us in the dog's outward characteristics.

All this is true for all GSD not just Czech or DDR as Susie seems to indicate.
These characteristics are
1.st line Hektor Von Schwaben was almost gone Czech dogs
but now this line is being reintroduced to Czech now.
2.nd line: sable, hard, in PP high anger level, great trackers, dominant thus lesser obedience.
3.rd line: very versatile dogs, high endurance and drive, our most popular line, smaller dogs
4.th line square dogs super protectiveness, handler aggression, early workers,
5.line widely spread many branches love trainer, otherwise, not very consistent line, medium-sized dogs, B/R, endurance, big heads, hard, clear headed.
6.Czech line based on ZVV3 dogs.
More details here on this reference link :
https://alpinek9forums.com/basic-bloodlines-t7.html

 All this is a well-known fact regardless of what some here would like you to believe. It is laughable to say as Jaonro does that this is an old wives tale or Susie would like to convince you without any proof that such is contrary to science.  

 

by duke1965 on 02 September 2018 - 16:09

so hans, you will guarantee that any male from second line (example) , bred to regardless what female, will produce dogs that are sable, hard, in PP high anger level, great trackers, dominant thus lesser obedience.

naturally that is impossible and therefore people have to look at the actual male and especially female, to predict somewhat, what the outcome of said mating will be

would be nice if it would work that way,

now if someone select only dogs from a breeding with that typical traits and, more important, breeds them to females with same typical traits, and selects the pups from the litter with such traits, it can look like its working

also in old DDR lines, the chance of males "reproducing themselves "was biggerthan now, due to level of inbreeding then versus now,

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5466-ingo-von-rudingen
 


yogidog

by yogidog on 02 September 2018 - 18:09

Duke sent you a pm thanks
Prager

by Prager on 02 September 2018 - 18:09

Duke,  can you "guarantee" what you produce when you type breed 2 dogs? Your assumptions are ridiculous.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 02 September 2018 - 20:09

Prager-
Thanks for posting your post above for those of us who would like to learn more.
I don‘t know a lot about line breeding theory and am not a breeder. I’m interested though...and have been trying to follow this thread, but not understanding everything.

I am curious....

Prager writes: 
„These characteristics are
1.st line Hektor Von Schwaben was almost gone Czech dogs
but now this line is being reintroduced to Czech now.“

Me:
How is Hecktor von Schwaben gone from Czech lines?
I thought he would be in all lines, in every dog pretty much, as the founding dog (or first dog registered)?

In my white shepherd‘s lines going back, Hecktor is the 28th in an uninterrupted, all named - no blanks, patriarchal line.

And, how can one ‚bring‘ back a line that old...and why....and know what traits it will bring from that far back? Hope these aren’t dumb questions! Thanks to anyone’s answer.

edited

by joanro on 02 September 2018 - 21:09

A dog as far back as hecktor, only information about him is anticdotal...no one alive who would know anything other than written. Look at a pedigree with hecktor and count all the dogs contributing to the live dog's pedigree you are looking at. Hundreds of dogs...so how could a person expect to recreate hecktor, a single dog among hundreds? That is an unrealistic endeavor...
You are looking at the patriarcle line in your dog's pedigree....28 generations on the top side alone. The genetics in your white dog by now have nothing of Hecktor in them.
It is impossible to recreate Hecktor, unless his complete DNA had been flash frozen and then cloned.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 02 September 2018 - 21:09

Thanks Joanro-
That is what I’m trying to understand. Hektor was so long ago...around 120 years ago, or so.
For sure parts of Hektor‘s genes are still floating around in our dogs...as his dependents.
But, exactly that same combo that Hektor had... only belonged to Hektor.
All of us and all dogs are all like snowflakes...no two are ever alike. Each one is a magical combination of genes, never to be repeated in the exact same way or combination.

Edit: even trying for a certain genetic baseline from Hektor again...how to get that? What would one be looking for in a „Hektor line“?
Aren’t all (or at least 90%) of GSDs from the „Hektor Line“? (Including Czech/DDR too, as they all originated from German dogs before the iron curtain shut?)

Prager

by Prager on 03 September 2018 - 00:09

Jessejones . Hector is not out of Czech bloodlines he just does not have his own branch ( at least that is what it was believed)  but regardless he is in every dog's pedigree because he is on the bottom of the trunk of the family tree. But in Czech lines, it was believed, that he has no "branch" so to speak for 1st line.look here:Image result for bloodlines German shepherd family tree

 On the bottom of the tree, you see this dog whichImage result for hektor von schwaben Hector is the founder of 1st line. But on the chart above which is mostly dedicated to Czech DDR dogs Hector Schwaben has no branch because at that time it was believed that there are no such dogs in Czech or DDR lines and this chart is for Czech/ East German lines. Now we know that this is not true and there indeed are dogs from 1st line in Czech lines. 

Since there was a WG dog Javir vom Talka Madra the rejuveniteing interest in 1st line happened and now we are finding 1st line dogs. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116-javir-vom-talka-marda

 This dog is a 1st line because if you go male to male to male to male you will eventually arrive to Hector and there is no Hettel ( founder of the 2nd line) in his pedigree. Thus Javir is 1st line If he would have Hettel then he would be 2nd line. 

 Next dog with branch ( bloodline)up the tree trunk is Hettel v Uckermark. It is a sitting dogRelated image this dog has his own branch. 

This dog fulfills all conditions and thus generated his own branch. Next dog on a trunk with branch is  Klodo and Utz and Rolf .  So as you cans see all dogs of 2nd 3rd and 4the and 5th line will have Hektor. 


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