Czech/DDR Good VS Bad? - Page 10

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by ValK on 09 September 2018 - 17:09

Prager on 09 September 2018 - 15:09

Good dogs are where you find them. WG still has some excellent working dogs. However, it is a popular bumper sticker cliche to say otherwise. You just need to know where to look. WG dogs are much more expensive though.

sure but what kind of effort one should put in search and why, if easier would be to find one among former czechoslovakian lines.
also as Joanna say - what are meaning behind "good dog"?
even here at PDB community majority of members do not distinguishing between dogs suitable for work in natural surrounding and dogs who is limited only for performance through sparing templates of sport ambience.

by Rik on 09 September 2018 - 19:09

Joan said "Definition for " good dogs" is different for different people.

To some people, " good dog" is what ever they can sell to suckers.

To others, " good dog" is what has the genetics to fulfill a job..."

well really, it can't be said better than this. anyone who believes different has never pulled a POS dog out of an airline crate that they took someone else's word on.



by Prager on 23 September 2018 - 16:09

valK "what kind of effort" you ask? That is a type of question of what I call McDonalds culture question, where everything is geared to convenience. But to answer your question I can go and find such dogs with minuscule effort. Are you saying that it is not possible to find Old Style Czech Dogs in a region of former Czechoslovakia? That would tell me that you are really not looking very hard.

What "majority of members on PDB here distinguishes" or not only testifies of how irrelevant and ignorant opinion of any majority usually is. The problem with geographical viewing and classification of the breed is that it does not encompass the reality in its totality which then leads to errors of judgment of the breed based on such a scheme.
The number one error is the belief that all dogs in Czech or in Germany or in Timbuktoo are like a mosaic or GSD where all pieces are diametrically different based on borders. The fact, however, is that there are significant overlaps. I'll talk about Czech and Slovakia which are regions I am familiar with being born and raised there and in constant contact as far as dogs go since I left in 1979 and thus I know better what I am talking about than the "majority of members on PDB". I am also the first one who internationally recognized quality fo these Czech dogs and introduced them to the outside of the world. So that should give me some credibility on the topic likeit or not.
The fact is that before the Iron curtain fell there was certain homogeneity of GSD which was stemming out from semi forcefull Czechoslovak government programs of ZVV where owners of the dogs titled ZM, ZVV 1,2,3 did pay minuscule taxes, where owners of non titled dogs had to pay exorbitantly forbidding taxes on such dog. The program was based on belief that in case of war these dogs will be confiscated and work in a war effort. Thus basically all GS dogs in Czech were bred and trained to pass these exams and do it with ease. Those titles back there were very much geared to work. The branch of these Czech dogs which people in USA and elsewhere in the world know where mainly result of Czechoslovakian border patrol and police which were little different from GSDs in general population. It is safe to say that Jiri bred these type of dogs since 1972 and since 1981 untill 2001 these dogs were bred by Jiri Novotny for Czechoslovakian border patrol and police and introduced to USA and the rest of the world by me and since 1981 until now are bred and sold by us privately.
The confusion of masses in USA and elsewhere arrived after the Iron curtain fell. After that time many West German sport type dogs were imported into Czech region and many people in Czech - being a competitive bunch - decided to also go the sport/competition way. There are now many kennels who specialize in a sport. To confuse the matter worse some of the former border patrol guys went to sports way as well. Thus I would venture educated guess and will say that about 75% +/- in Czech GSDs are sport dogs. However, there is a following of Jiri Novotny and mine who still promote these what I call 'OSCzD Old Style Czech Dogs. Thus, when you hear people ignorant of these facts telling you that all Czech dogs are sport type dogs, now you know what the truth of such a notion is. It is malarkey.
FYI These OSCzD type of dogs are not built around geographical purity which would be stupid, but they are built around what I and Jiri always promoted as dogs which were loved by old Czech culture. The old style rugged Czech working dogs. We hungrily grab and incorporate into our breeding program such type of dogs regardless of where they came from. WG , DDR , Czech, Slovak ....If the dog fits OSCzD type then who cares where they come from. An only naive fool does.
These OSCzD are easily to be found if you know where to go. So do not be fooled by what "majority of members on PDB" and other innocent or nefarious detractors of these dogs think or will tell you and do your homework if you want to have such dog.

by joanro on 23 September 2018 - 20:09

If having a preference for a certain type of dog which happens to come from a specific geographal area make the person stupid, then I guess when the pzs dogs were in full swing, those breeders were stupid, too.

by Prager on 23 September 2018 - 22:09

I guess you mean z Ps. :) To answer your question the fact is that z Ps (z Pohranicni straze) dogs =Czechoslovakian border patrol and police dogs were geographically a result of Czech females and DDR studs which all originated in Germany before it was split to WG and DDR. That is why there is NO geographical purity and there should not be one emphasized even today and one who claim geographical purity has no idea what she is talking about.

That is why instead of geographical purity, when I am talking about OSCzD (Old Style Czech dogs) I am not talking about geographical origin of the dogs but I am talking about a culture which created these dogs - which would be Czech culture and it was done regardless of where the dogs used for z Ps breeding came from geographically. Such an attitude should be maintained even today. Create good working dogs of a certain type and forget where the dog came from geographically. 

 And please do not bore me and waste my time with inane aphorisms on what is a "good" dog. 

by joanro on 23 September 2018 - 23:09

A good dog is what the person desires. To some people a good dog is a Czech border patrol bred dog before all the west German sport blood diluted the old school zps or pzs szp pedigrees.( Hitting the p key before the z key, still understood by intelligent people what I meant)
Anyway, some people won't settle for the old timey zps dogs when they want high scoring podium dogs...nosirree, they want the the west German sport dogs like what the zps dogs have been diluted with.
For others, a good dog is a black and red german show line that is low on drives of any flavor that will just lay around the house and look beautiful.

Then there are those who, for them, a good dog is an American show line that will win in the conformation ring and not ever bark at any one.

So, the term " good dog" depends on the individual person' s wants or needs.

by ValK on 24 September 2018 - 03:09

Prager, maybe revenue generated by dogs sales allows you to travel around the world in search of your ideal dogs. i'm not in such position. i don't know damn about breeding, lines, pedigrees matching and all that jazz. but i know what type of dog is my type because i grown with such dogs around me and today i can't not only find but even see understanding among breeders about this kind of german shepherds.

to be fair, albeit in my former home country we had share border with former Czechoslovakia and we even did heard about zPS, i never have seen these czech dogs, to have some ideas about their now almost mythical qualities. the border's guarding service every year did import some fresh adult dogs, males and females, for breeding purposes. all of them exclusively from former DDR grenztruppen and never from Czechoslovakia. i just can guess, they did had reasons for that.

anyway, even looking from today, in retrospective, all Warsaw bloc, in regards of service dogs, simply did parasitized on the achievement of DDR system. Czechoslovakia, maybe to less extend, wasn't exclusion. thus your burst about uniqueness of old type czech dogs i see rather as a part of commercial move than reflection of reality. if these old czech dogs was anything like DDR developed type (with whom i familiar) then what is Czech breeders produces today, including Jinopo, way too far away from it.

"We hungrily grab and incorporate into our breeding program such type of dogs regardless of where they came from. WG , DDR , Czech, Slovak".

DDR, being about same size and population as former Czechoslovakia and being isolated from world's pool of GSD, was able not only to sustain breed but even develop it into superior type, without influx from outside.

Czechs, who for many decades did build foundation of own GSD's pool on the import from DDR, after crash of DDR system and extinction of established under that system breeding base, turned out to be not in position to preserve previous achievement and to continue development independently, as eastern germans did it before.

or they just don't want it, because that system wasn't commercially driven and thus not profitable?

by joanro on 24 September 2018 - 11:09

Valk, that was the best, most honest summary of the gsd and from a person with first hand knowledge. Thank you.

by apple on 24 September 2018 - 12:09

What worked for me was to find a dog with a strong pedigree of West German, Czech and Slovak dogs, which resulted in high drives, good aggression and nerves and a social dog who is still protective.

by joanro on 24 September 2018 - 12:09

And that, for you apple, is what you deem a good dog.

Did you find the dog you liked first, or did you search pedigrees and select the dog from the pedigree?

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