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by duke1965 on 20 August 2018 - 06:08

the field of genetics may be growing, but there is only so much of it that can actually used in making breedingchoices,

if one has a crappydog, there is no genetic formula that can help you outWink Smile

Powerflex

by Powerflex on 20 August 2018 - 14:08

Ok, not trying to beat this to death, but what do we consider bad hips? Anything other than excellent, or anything worse than A3.

An example, I purchased a excellent highly titled working dog with A3 hips. All his litter mates had good hips, his five generation pedigree had all good hips, he had produced over 50 puppies with only two dysplastic pups to be found, which made him technically a hip improver.

At eleven years of age I had him re-xrayed to see what shape his hips were in because he showed no excessive wear and tear. He was still 102 pounds of muscle and bone. Looked more like a bear than a dog. Xray result, A3 hips no noticeable change.
A lot of people would not breed this dog, I wish I would have breed him more.

Breeding the best dog to the best dog doesn't always give us everything we want, but it is better than breeding an X-ray to an x-ray.

by joanro on 20 August 2018 - 15:08

Powerflex, excellent post!
Prager

by Prager on 21 August 2018 - 07:08

@powerflex
what are good hips and what are bad hips as attested by different scales of different registries is a subjective matter. Mother nature does not tolerate anything but the best hips. I have seen wolf's hips x rays and they were super excellent. Survival of the fittest demands such hips. What do we demand? A1- A3? it is not practical for us to breed only excellent A1 / 0/0 / OFE excellent hips because if we would breed all dogs like that then the dog's would extinct since such hips in dogs are rare.
Our task as breeders is thus not to say we should generally breed this type of hips or better quality, but it is important to always push the statistical bell curve of hips to the better quality side. The HD is a polygenetic problem with an irregular pattern which is genetically predisposed but environmentally induced. Because many genes ( polygenetic) are involved in the development of bad hips it so hard to put finger on where the HD is coming from.
Basically, the theory says that you need to have specific genes in both parents to match to get HD if the environment triggers it. Let's arbitrarily say that there are 20 genes 1-20.( These are not real numbers just an example for sake of explanation) More of these genes out of these 20 genes the dog will have a better chance is that he will be matched with the same bad genes in their partner. For example, the dog of powerflex may have had 2 such genes and when bred he was not marched with those 2 genes in the female so he produced well. However, if he would have 19 genes probability would be that they would be easier to be matched with females with HD genes even though such female would have let say 3 such genes,... because there is a high probability that those 3 genes are going to be matched with the same genes included in the 19 genes of their breeding partner.

by joanro on 21 August 2018 - 12:08

There have not been any hd genes identified in fifty years of research....
Prager

by Prager on 21 August 2018 - 19:08

@joanro So what?That is because there is not one HD gene. There are many genes which work in combination. These genes are genes related to inflammation, bone formation and cartilage remodeling pathways and others. There are at least 17 markers. So that you stop saying this below I am posting DNA sequences of 17 CHD-associated genetic markers  
Marker Wild-type Sequence CHD-associated Mutant Sequence
TiHo1 CAAGAGT[]TCCAGTTCC CAAGAGT[G]TCCAGTTCC
TiHo1a CAAGAGT[A]TCCAGTTCC
TiHo5 GCAATGCAT[C]GGTTGTTTTT GCAATGCAT[T]GGTTGTTTTT
TiHo7 ACCTTAGGTA[G]TACCAAATA ACCTTAGGTA[T]TACCAAATA
TiHo9 TAAGAATGA[G]AGTGTATTTTGTC TAAGAATGA[T]AGTGTATTTTGTC
TiHo12 CAACATTGTTA[C]ACTAAACACTG CAACATTGTTA[T]ACTAAACACTG
TiHo16 AATTCTCAC[C]GAAAGTCTGCCAG AATTCTCAC[T]GAAAGTCTGCCAG
TiHo18 TGGAAGGAA[A]CACAGGAGGGAA TGGAAGGAA[C]CACAGGAGGGAA
TiHo19 CTAAAATCTGA[C*]ATAGCCAAAG CTAAAATCTGA[C*]ATAGCCAAAG
TiHo20 GTACTTGGA[T]GCTGCATAC GTACTTGGA[C]GCTGCATAC
TiHo21 CAAACACGTGA[T]GTCTTTAAA CAAACACGTGA[C]GTCTTTAAA
TiHo23 AGGAAGGACAG[T]GCCTTGCCCT AGGAAGGACAG[C}GCCTTGCCCT
TiHo24 GTGGCAGAT[A]TGAGTCAC GTGGCAGAT[G]TGAGTCAC
TiHo25 CAGGATGGC[A]CCCCAGTTC CAGGATGGC[G]CCCCAGTTC
TiHo26 TAGCTTCCTG[A]AATACCATTAT TAGCTTCCTG[C]AATACCATTAT
TiHo33 CTTACCTGC[G]TCCCTTCCCC CTTACCTGC[A]TCCCTTCCCC
TiHo34 TGTGAGTT[A]AACATGTAAAA TGTGAGTT[G]AACATGTAAAA
TiHo35 TTAGAAAGGT[G*]ACTTTCCAGG TTAGAAAGGT[G*]ACTTTCCAGG

I hope this helps. :)

 If you want your head to explode you can read all article on this. I have :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5542656/#pone.0182093.s002


Prager

by Prager on 21 August 2018 - 19:08

Dr Jeannie says that "With the incredible accumulation of data spanning over 50 years now, the consensus is Finally emerging that the causes of canine hip dysplasia are only mostly environmental and very little to do with genetics." Rebattle: There is no source cited for this claim, and no wonder. In fact, after decades of searching for the genes that cause hip dysplasia, they have yet to be identified, but the consensus REMAINS that genetics does play a role in hip dysplasia. In fact the fraction of the variation in hip phenotype (i.e., hip score) that can be attributed to genetics has been quantified many times. I am not aware of ANY study, or any researcher, that claims genetics "has very little to do" with hip dysplasia. Yes, environmental factors also play a role. But heritability is not a measure of how much of a trait is genetic; rather, it's the fraction of the VARIATION in a trait is attributed to VARIATION in genetics. What we know is that there are many genes associated with hip dysplasia because it is a polygenic trait, and because the particular genes vary by breed, we are unlikely to ever identify "The" genes for hip dysplasia. So, statement #1 is FALSE. This taken from this link which debunks what Jaonro is saying all over the internet. : https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/hip-dysplasia-facts-fallacies-and-fairy-tales

by joanro on 21 August 2018 - 19:08

There is still not a genetic marker or markers for hd. None found, after researchers studying for fifty years. All puppies are born with perfect hips...hd develops after birth... That is why hd has not been eliminated, it's not like locating a long coat gene, or color gene. Hd is developmental and not directed by a gene or combination of genes specific for hd. Fact!

by joanro on 21 August 2018 - 19:08

That link explains how hd develops and that the genetic propensity is in the structure of the dog which is genetic. The article supports what I'm saying, not ' bebunks' it.

I sumarized, made it simple in my post on previous page.

Show us the hd gene you believe exists. Explain why, with since support, why hd has not been eliminated.

by joanro on 21 August 2018 - 19:08

Hans: Jaonro is saying all over the internet. : https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/hip-dysplasia-facts-fallacies-and-fairy-tales

" All over the internet"? Two websites, here and on your's, is hardly " all over the internet". If you don't like what I am saying, then you give your unsubstantiated opinion. But others may like to see something other than what you claim ...you do believe in free speech, do you not? You theory has been around for a very long time, and does not stand up to reality.


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