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by Prager on 19 August 2018 - 19:08

Duke, we are looking at littermates because that gives us a window into genotype of the dog. Even though some pups may have a different genetic package as you call it the probability is higher that it is not so. We are dealing with probabilities. If I have a litter of 10 pups and 9 are severally dysplastic and one is not and I keep breeding such non-dysplastic pup in litters for 3-5 generations, then what do you think you will get? I would think that it is a safe bet that you will get a mess of a dysplasia all over the place. LMX ( littermates x rayed )type breeding proved that you can push HD out of the phenotype when you consider the HD in littermates and breed only dogs whose littermates are 10% or less HD positive. The proof is in the pudding and the pudding confirms what I have said above.

by duke1965 on 19 August 2018 - 19:08

Prager,usually fenotype follows genotype, or in plain english,what you see is what you get,easyest rule in breeding, breeding away from a problem is the name of the game, and selection is the tool.

9 out of ten severe dysplastic is unreal side of the spectrum, 5 out of 10 xrayed, 4 good and one bad, would that be a no for breeding the 4 good ones ?

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 August 2018 - 20:08

Yogi, you might as well spay and neuter the entire breed then. There is nothing where there is nothing. I wasn't lucky this time.

I've been blessed with extremely good health in my dogs. My breeding bitch got Excellent hips, my breeding male has good hips. My upcoming breeding bitch also has excellent hips, my young male I can already see he will most likely also get excellent hips... All have normal elbows. Offspring so far is predominantly healthy. Some hickups here and there.


I absolutely believe that the environment plays a huge roll but there is also a genetic predisposition and certain dogs do produce lesser hips, however they may bring other things to the table that are valuable. Hardness, Aggression... etc.

It's a trade off. If Bungalow and Koerbelbach hadn't bred the dogs they have, we wouldn't have some of the top producers in the breed. We wouldn't have certain dogs. It's a balancing act.



by Prager on 19 August 2018 - 21:08

"Phenotype usually follows a genotype"? I do not understand. I see it as that phenotype is only a small part of what is the genotype of the dog?


by ggturner on 19 August 2018 - 21:08

The field of genetics is growing and changing as geneticists make new discoveries. There’s so much that they don’t know. I am not a breeder and am no authority on breeding. I do teach the basics (emphasis on the basics) of genetics in my biology classes (I teach high school biology and AP biology). I think geneticists could learn so much if they would do more studies on dogs. It makes sense to only breed dogs that don’t have a lot of HD recorded in their genealogy. Environment can affect phenotype, but skeletal structure is inherited. Then there are always mutations which cannot be prevented or predicted. The best anyone can do is perform health checks and breed sound dogs.

by susie on 19 August 2018 - 22:08

Simply said :

Phenotype is the result of genotype...
Without genotype no phenotype.

by ggturner on 19 August 2018 - 22:08

Genotype is the genetic makeup for a characteristic such as coat
color or eye is the actual alleles for that trait/characteristic. For example, a person has inherited brown eye and blue eye alleles. The phenotype is the physical appearance based on the genotype. In the example I gave, the person actually has brown eyes because brown eye color is dominant over blue eye color.

by joanro on 19 August 2018 - 22:08

A hip dysplasia gene has not been identified in fity years of research. Pretty safe to say, physical build of the dog is what is genetic and will predispose the dog to hd determined by environment.

Look at these examples of dogs, gives a visual of the phenotypical dogs with and without hd....


by Sunsilver on 20 August 2018 - 00:08

Sunny, mildly dyplastic is not a death sentence. The dog will probably never be lame and will live a perfectly normal life. No point being heartbroken over a dog living a normal life. If it's puppies you wanted, there are millions of litters out there.

Well, it was a problem because I DID want puppies, and she had a wonderful pedigree, but you're right, she's 11 now, and has led a perfectly normal life. We even did some training for IPO, including the jumps. I can really releate to B.E. though, whose very promising female didn't pass. It was a huge disappointment.

 And of course, then I bought ANOTHER female, and SHE didn't work out either (temperament was crappy -scared of her own shadow.)

That brought me up to the allowed limit of 3 dogs in my home, and none of them breedable... Wondering  And I'm not the sort of person who dumps a dog just because it doesn't turn out the way I expected. (The breeder did find a suitable home for the timid dog, where she could be just a pet, and have no demands put on her.) 

You're lucky, Joan, because it seems that where you are, you can have as many dogs as you want. 


by Hundmutter on 20 August 2018 - 05:08

"The field of genetics is growing and changing ..."
Very well summed up, ggturner. (Oh WHERE is that 'Like' button ?)

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