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by Centurian on 04 May 2018 - 12:05

Juno I want to elaborate on what Valk wrote.

In dog lingo , when we are in foundation building with a dog after a certain point , if we continue to keep the dog chasing , Valk stated prey behavior , in simple English , that dog will get locked into prey apprehension and it becomes more difficult for some dogs to switch over to defensive behavior.
Each dog should *** be interacted with as an individual . I wrote a good helper has to understand the dog's zone for defenses and threshold levels. That being said what I wrote , is that you introduce defense before the dog is ready , you can ruined the dog , you don't bring in defense when the dog is ready , you can ruin the dog too for what you want that is. In the beginning foundation , it is good ti build a dog's suspicion and confidence by chasing out , then leading up to chasing and a bite... But then one has to decide at one point do we pressure the dog in close proximity .. THAT is the critical decision ! So hope this gives to you a better perspective. This is why we advocate working with some one not just experienced but very very experienced .

by yogidog on 04 May 2018 - 12:05

Prey or defence. Depending on where you and your dog stand in training and most of all maturity. the nerve of the dog will also be a big factor in the development of pp. I have a female that I'm working at the moment and he nerve is a little tin but at the same time she is very aggressive. But if you read your dog and know your dog and you must never lie to your self about your dog you will as I did see the aggression is only coming from the tin nerve. This female has super grips and super drives and is very loyal. My point is if I rushed my female into defensive behaviour I would have a very sharp unpredictable a dog that would not perform to my liking. Her grip would be crap because it all done in panic with little confidence. So what did for 2 and half years I only worked this female in prey. I gave her the time and the respect that she needs to mature this female is now 3 years old and she is fabulous her grip is strong her fight is super and most of all her nerve is under control and very dependably. I can not change the nerve but I can control it. This female will now go into defence and she never loses her foundation. I cant say this enough time time time give it to the took other steps in obedience and other areas but I have an amazing dog now that with her type of nerve she can do a lot in my home she will not let anything pass without notice super alert dog can bring her everywhere very social and super in pp

by Centurian on 04 May 2018 - 13:05

Good job Yogi

I will add once the threatening of the dog is started , there is nor rule that states every session has to be a threat session . That is to say you can mix the scenarios up now and then going back to the dog on the offensive chasing mixing in with the pressure /threat scenarios. People ask me how long does each step take .. and the answer I give them is " it takes as long as it takes depending on the dog' . THE biggest mistakes in dog training is doing to much to fast and doing to or to much or to little of.

And lest we not forget .. at some point in the training Protection must become one and the same as Obedience. Too little is as bad as to much ....

by yogidog on 04 May 2018 - 17:05

Exactly how i would do it centurion. why would anyone put pressure on a dog every time that the bring it out. Makes no sence. This bitch i have is not a soft bitch by any means I correct her unfair she would let you know. every dog you train weather in obedience bite work track what ever u do you must walk away with a little more knowledge. Dogs are great teachers if we just watch.

by Juno on 22 May 2018 - 11:05

Thought I will give a brief update. I finally found a small club that started up a year ago and is in the process of getting affiliated with the USCA. They do primarily IPO but also PSA and have about 10 members with certified decoys. Took my dog for evaluation and he impressed everyone there with his temperament and strength. The Training Director, who is also a breeder of WL GSDs, evaluated him and was really impressed that he had absolutely no issues biting with the strength he displayed on a strange field with a decoy he had never seen. He showed very good drives but lacked focus (and it was more due to me not spending enough time with him to develop that) during obedience, no issues with biting in fact I would have been surprised if he had not bitten the sleeve with the strength and quality of bite he did. After some thought I have decided to do PSA as it seems a lot more interesting and more my cup of tea. IPO is great and requires a lot of discipline but seemed a little too choreographed for my liking and frankly I don't think I have the patience for IPO tracking - will leave it to the die hards. PSA on the other hand seemed more realistic and required very good co-ordination between dog and handler with a lot of control and really requires a dog that can handle the pressure otherwise it will be run off the field. My dog seems to have it, now it is more up to me. Also, I thought I would attach two short videos of Zeus at 13 months doing agility for the first time - never seen it in his life - did not seem to bother him.

by Centurian on 22 May 2018 - 16:05

I like your dog a lot !!! You handle your dog ok too .
So ... if I were in your shoes . to me this bite work session and jumping the hurdles session would not be satisfactory for me.

I will share what i would be thinking if someone interacted with my dog in that fashion . For the record , allow me to qualify my comment and please keep in mind this is a subjective comment . It is not an objective comment. So , here goes :
Hurdle jumping. The dog does not know how to jump a hurdle. Goes he go over it , yes absolutely , but because he goes over it does not imply he knows how to negotiate it. First . to much to fast : teach 1 hurdle jump absolutely correctly , then two and move on to multiple . If you wonder what I am referring to are teaching the dog : to calculate the correct approach to and the correct take off point to in relation to the hurdle , how to position it's body overt the hurdle { there are two ways that the dog can position itself in the air , I prefer the dog to be able to tuck both rear legs well up underneath it's torso rather than have the rear legs outstretched behind the torso because this prevents the rear legs getting caught or hitting the cross top of the hurdle . This allows also in my opinion a better touch down to the ground. . When you add multiple hurdles the dog must also calculate landing properly and cadence for the next hurdle. Start with a lower height to teach concepts. A dog hopping over a hurdle up close is not the same as a dog jumping [ which requires thinking] ver a hurdle .

I do not like the interaction with the helper. When I see a whip used my first thought : is to wrap that whip around the decoy /helper's head. I will give just a few of my reasons. I personally don't need , or want my dog to be over stimulated in order to behave a way that I want it to . Most likely , in probability , no body in real life, is going to get your dog all fired up in order so that it will get a bite. Can you dog handle the whip - your dog did do well but have that helper explain to me the purpose of that whip use. .... Juno , never mind serious work,, again my bias prejudiced opinion , even sport work , if my dog is not ever ready willing to encounter with little or no stimulation ... then ... just then ... Juno , my 10 week puppies i 'CONDITION " : one , two wiggle of a rag and BAM i expect them to go into the man fast , hard and with a tenacious full bite. No pressure mind you with puppies I use BUT my point is what is all this foolish stimulation . It serves no purpose because the more over stimulated the dog , the o more is required to balance the dog out too . That is to say : it is much harder in the long run to control and to have a dog work WITH you if it is all wound up crazed and frenzied ! In real life , in in sport , if I say to my dog when I and he target an opponent ' FASS" , that is what i expect .. him to fass / bite , no stim .

AlsO I never ever give a dog a bite , unless the dog is in body space and /or in contact with a person. Even pups 8 . 10 weeks old starting rag work on a flirt pole , two wiggle into the body control to prevent injury , no pressure either. So when I see this person work your dog , just ... just just ...

Anyway Juno work with who you can , I realize there are confinements as to what people can do .. and this is as much for all the people reading my thoughts too ...

by Juno on 22 May 2018 - 17:05

Hi Centurion, as usual appreciate your comments. The videos of my dog jumping over the hurdles was from a year ago - his first time ever. Since then he can go over them exactly as you have described above. I just posted them here as I had mentioned earlier on this thread that I had done some agility with him and he has no environmental issues - the videos were posted to substantiate what I had written earlier - no other reason. As I will start training at the new club we will see how it progresses - I do travel a lot for work - but spend as much as time as I can working with him which we bot enjoy. It is very theraputic for me.

by Centurian on 23 May 2018 - 13:05

Juno .. this comment is specifically to you .. and anyone else if they care :

In regards to having a serious dog and to PSA , which as a sport I appreciate but am not fond of for the average person to do as a past time for the following :

Juno I will qualify what I write to you by stating truthfully that I have been trained and , tested with awarded credential , to teach . In PSA I can teach a person and a dog to do the automobile protection exercise. This I greatly frown upon. IMOp , this is not sport and is a very serious teaching . A word of warning** to you , be careful teaching your dog to protect your vehicle while it is inside the vehicle . I know , there are many people going to harshly disagree with me ... that is ok ... Different people have different needs and I suppose for some people this would be a good thing to teach a dog - I do not argue that ..

Juno , people are people and they often do stupid things ! I relate this experience to you : Last summer I went to the super market with 6, yes six of my GS in my truck . I have a police K9 compartment where two of my GS were in place and in the covered pick up area four other GSs . In the K9 area I can roll down the windows and there is a grate covering the area. My sun roof was open and front windows . I came out to my truck and a fellow walked over to me and said WOW I see your dogs they are beautiful . He was an ex military K9 handler. After talking with him 1/2 our before he left he said to me : : just before you come out of the grocery store someone came over to see your dogs . I said oh... and he said , " yes he wanted to take a look at your dogs and he stuck his into the front windows of your truck . He said your dogs were sounding off. The front door of the K9 unit was open a bit .. Juno --- can you see how stupid people are ?? That fellow was lucky he did not get bitten ! If a dog bites someone , remember .. there is always going to be serious injury and serious liability . Many times I se someone stick their hands onto the side or inside a vehicle . If a naive youngster ever went by your vehicle and did such a thing and got bitten badly ... then .....

Same summer , my friend at the same grocery , left 3 his Malinois in his Exepedition . He was a canine behaviorist and in 30 years never had a problem with a loose dogs in his vehicle. He come out to open his door and saw the whole side of his door in ruin ,. Because .... some idiot came over to the vehicle , they were serious Mals and that person taunted his dogs that they became so wound up , looking to take a pice out of that person !

So Juno ... when I see this car protection exercise done in PSA .... I say ... ' let the buyer [ trainer ] beware ' and ' let your conscience be your guide '. We all have to decide what is worth it and what is not. remember what I wrote . Serious dogs are never, ever , ever to be considered a mere pet companion ! BTW I aways have my two best friends with me Smith and Wesson , and my mindset , forget about my dogs , you will not ever want to deal with me for if you do you would be better off having been bit by my dog ! Just saying...

by Juno on 23 May 2018 - 14:05


Point taken and appreciated. Yes, having a dog trained to do protection work (any protection work) is a serious responsibility. Certainly something to consider as it is always a dilemma. I can relate to your experience, when hurricane Irma was threatening to wipe FL off the face of the earth last year we (my wife, our 2 dogs - one of them being my GSD, and I) decided to evacuate to our home in GA. We left at night and because of the heavy traffic we had pulled over at a rest station to catch a nap in our SUV. Both of my dogs were very vigilant and would sound off if anyone walked by near our car - this was just natural instinct, neither had been trained to protect the vehicle. So, yes - I fully agree with your comments.

by Centurian on 23 May 2018 - 16:05

Juno :-) I am wishing you and your dog the best ...

Another word to you .. I don't know the second video you previously posted the time frame ....

Nonetheless , PSA is ok if you choose , but of you want your dog geared something more to Watchfulness -Alert-> Encounter , then do not start your dog off in a session , as in that video session , and as was illustrated by the helper . Take my advice , start off by the dog chasing someone away ... leading up to a chase away and apprehension without fight and bite , to chase, apprehension , bite and struggle during the encounter etc etc [ in short description . I can't write a whole theory and rationale for why I advise so . In short , even if your dog can handle a little pressure , threat as illustrated in the video . It is still a better choice to start a serious dog off in the way I stated. Does not matter if the dog has the capability to handle that stress / challenge from the start. Others may very well argue and disagree. However, I am not going to give a dissotation on the advice-. All that I will write is that if they wish to give you a different advice , then you decide - All that I would say to them is : that someday , maybe , they will learn better . I try not to argue with those so called experienced people that think they know it all ...

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