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BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 03 May 2018 - 11:05

 

 


Better find a better decoy this a sporty decoy and this is what exactly wrong today ,serious GOOD PROPER decoys are hard to find for serious training/dogs ( and know what they are doing !!). and I hate whips ,when your dog need a whip to become in DRIVE than you have a problem  I see too many decoys using  as routine a whip  by every dog ........don,t know the dog and handler but the GSD in this vid is not bad @  all ..  litle observation

There are more good dogs than good decoys and (handlers) IMO

 

 

by Juno on 03 May 2018 - 11:05

Centurion,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation - it is truly appreciated. I fully understand the implications of training a dog in protection. A little more on his temperament (both good and bad) - he is a very bold dog and will approach strangers with confidence but once he has finished investigating will be very aloof and ignore any overtures towards him - he is neither friendly nor unfriendly, he is very good with kids (at least within our immediate family) and is very neutral towards kids he does not know. He is not dog aggressive unless the other dog is in which case all bets are off but will back off if I tell him to. What is not good about him is he is not good with other animals - i.e. deer, cats, possums, birds and will chase after them and will kill (maybe not the deer..) if he catches them (unfortunately has done that) - however; it maybe because our other dog (same age as him) is a terrier mix and she is a pure hunter and will kill and Zeus (my GSD) might have learned it from her. He is bit of a talker at home and will tell us all about his day when I get home from work - he has quieted down a bit as he grows older. He does have an instant on and instant off switch but will go nuts when I come home from work and he knows he will go out with me to play with the ball and it is a chore to get him to sit as he is literally bouncing off the walls. Have done a lot of obedience with him and he is very eager to please and I can make him do "sitz" and "platz" anywhere so no issues there. He is physically a very powerful dog and environmentally sound - I have done agility courses with him - go through the tunnels, go over sets of hurdles, jump through the big tires, jump up the 8 ft (or 10 ft) A frames - he has also jumped over an 8 ft fence at a different training facility as he did not want to be there, go over narrow planks and sway bars (make him sitz and blieb on the plank), he could care less (and it is true for our other dog too) about storms, fireworks (4th of July is no big deal in fact both of them have sat out in our patio and were absolutely fascinated with the fireworks), and gun shots (we have home in GA too which is surrounded by woods and hunters go out hunting). He does have some weird fascinations with flying objects and will not tolerate them flying over our house and will chase them and is always looking up when he hears an airplane flying by. When inside our house he is calm relaxed and will go to sleep or be my wife's shadow - no issues there. So by no means is he a perfect dog but a pretty good one - I have had 2 other GSDs before - and have done protection training with them when we still had clubs in Miami - they all seem to have moved away. This is my first WL GSD and I have to say quite different than my first 2 who were WG SL dogs (also very good before SL dogs got all watered down) as far as energy level and soundness of temperament. Hope this helps.

Valk, Jesse,

Thanks for your comments too - much appreciated.

by Juno on 03 May 2018 - 11:05

Thanks BlackMalinois. I respect your comments. I believe you are in Europe (Holland?) and in KNPV based on your comments and posts that I have read - so I am sure you have seen and are experienced with both good decoys and dogs - so it does add credence to what you are saying. Again, thank you and please feel free to let me know what I may be doing wrong.

I will post some updated links of the training after I have implemented the recommendations made here by all of you.

by Centurian on 03 May 2018 - 12:05

Juno These are the easiest dog for me to train !! I had a dog like this .. ' when I come home full of energy , bouncing off the walls ' .
So ... the more animated the dog , the more calm I am , the less I do anything. I freeze when my hand goes on the door. at the beginning I help the dog understand what I want , and what must be done for the door to open . First few times the dog is a little jumpy/energetic. But once he realizes that his 'sit' is the key that opens the door . from that point on I do nothing I freeze up , all motion stops, when I am at the door , because he will sit to get that door opened for play.

So a few lessons here : A dog like this communication is vital. you can get this dog to do anything you want by giving him what he wants [ and that should really in essence what you want] and you do not have to be overbearing to such a degreed that you take him down a few notches. Channel his behavior and energy and sometimes that is brought about by simply not letting the dog reach his goal . not an issue , no fussing, no physical ramifications or berating the dog. This will translate into what you want to accomplish with this dog. One last word.. this helps the dog see you as a partner. So many people are so overbearing to the dog , that actually in the dog's mind they get to the point that they not only worry about strangers , now they are way a point where they worry about the guy standing behind them on the end pf the leash too. On one hand you can't let him act like a nutty boy , yet you have to channel his behavior. All is done in balance and sometimes saying and doing nothing is an enforcement in and of itself. To stress : we need to have the dog work with and for us , not a dog that works unto itself only. Remember this in OB too as well as protection .


by Juno on 03 May 2018 - 12:05

Thanks again. Agree with you - I have learned that dogs are more patient than me and can outlast me - I am learning what my dog knew it all along.
BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 03 May 2018 - 13:05

 

To get an honest opinion from you and your dog I have to work with you for  couple hours in real life  tells me more...I like to work with more serious threat and pressure  man focus not too much equipment

focus   .


I see the same in KNPV with some decoys over here, Not matter KNPV ,IPO or ring sport,or wahtever
there are some good decoys in their (sport) routine , but if you went something special or  example you have a special dog not only super prey focus but more serious than you need another decoy to get your goal and not every decoy today have that skills..

@ Juno I don,t know you and the dog its only a small obeservation from a few seconds
If I,m right you are the handler not the decoy IMO opinion what I see you are a litle bit passive
and the leash is too short de dog has no space, another thing when the decoy is running away the dog is not focus to the decoy a few moment this tell me something.......

I,m not a profesional expert only some experience over here in IPO/KNPV for a few years
work with Bouviers, Boxer,Rottweilers,Dobermann ,GSD Malinois ,DS  every dog has his own personality
my point is too many decoys today work in the same routine and this is very wrong ..
I,m not perfect I make my  mistakes also and still learning.

I saw in the USA some  good PSA decoys doing more street and real practice exercises
not only the same sport exercises and challenge / testing the dog more and not too many equipment focus

In Houston US this week from Holland is Dick van Leeuwen police K9 instructor and KNPV with a team from very good decoys and handlers
and many years real street experience give some seminars if I was there I,m sure wanna go , you will learn a lot




 

 

by Juno on 03 May 2018 - 15:05

Thanks BlackMalinois - I think I get what you are saying. Yes, I am the handler and yes I am by nature a calm person so your observation of me is spot on. We need to work where the situation is more serious and not overly hyped up as presented in the video. I also take into account what Centurion is saying and taking it one step at a time. Will incorporate it during our next routine - next week - and see how we do. Will keep all of you posted as this has been very helpful and a great learning experience for me.

As always - appreciate all the great input.

by ValK on 03 May 2018 - 16:05

Juno, indifference to non threatening surrounding is good feature but high prey
could create problems if dog is used in the protection dog role.

by Centurian on 03 May 2018 - 16:05

Juno BMal is correct.. to many decoys and helpers are boiler plate in training . They do things one way. The dog itself should always dictate what , when , how and where the teaching should be done.
When interacting with the dog and handler it is important to know how , when , where the pressure that comes with seriousness should be done. And BM is right that someone needs to be seeing the dog work with you .
But I write this in a generality . When you want the dog to be serious , that is to say , ready , willing and able to bite someone for the appropriate reason then what goes with that is also the dog biting for the appropriate reason. When the dog encounters it must be from a position of offense.. NOT DEFENSE. This is a notion that many people do not understand , especially when they start throwing terms around like prey , defense. To shed light on this when my GS protect me , first he is working as 'we' scenario. Second , he goes into the confrontation not thinking he has to so call defend , but in his mind he is going into the situation to CONTROL , on the offense, that person. The control of that person comes through with Confidently being Combative . He does not go in because he is Concerned and Biting is his way to solve a problem of being scared ,concerned, worried. There is a very very very profound difference between those two scenarios in the state of mind of the dog. Teaching a dog to be suspicious and bite because he is concerned to have to fight for his life is very different than the dog wanting to lord it over another person by biting , being combative and controlling. So .... aside from the dog's temperament , you want , if you can , the dog to bite out being in the right state of mind with an offensive , mentality. I write this only as an illustration to make the point : a good helper/decoy must identify and know what is going on in your dog's head and it's emotional state becuase that will dictate what he/she will do , when and how.. or not do ...

Some dogs have a more natural defensive bent, and that is what they are. Some dogs , one needs to work with that typeof dog make up. Other dogs are not by makeup heavily defensive by nature, so these dogs you have to introduce the pressure when the dog is ready , in a certain calibrated way. If we put pressure on certain dogs to much to fast before they are ready , they learn to bite for the wrong reason [s] .

Remember you are 50% of the equation here , working with your dog and dog working with you . So there is a lot to working dogs . BM is correct , you have to work with someone that understands ,who is experienced and who can also work with you both !


by Juno on 03 May 2018 - 17:05

Centurion - you need to write a book. It is amazing how you explain things - even I get it. I am an Engineer by profession, have always loved dogs, especially GSDs but not very good at these intuitive things that come with training. Being an Engineer I understand - cause and effect, on and off - that's why I understand your explanations - they are pretty darn clear to me. In a nutshell, I don't want my dog to bite/defend out of fear but rather to confidently respond to a threat to put an end to it, and yes I am the other half of the team. I also get what BM, Valk, and Duke are saying. I also got the same response from others who are very experienced in another forum where I posted this.

Learning a lot!




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