Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 23

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Prager

by Prager on 18 September 2018 - 18:09

There was some confusion here about an extinction  of behavior and word "obsolete". This is what I meant when I used word extinc> I meant extinction of conditioned behavior which observed in both operantly conditioned and classically conditioned behavior. When operant behavior that has been previously reinforced no longer produces reinforcing consequences the behavior gradually stops occurring. It is extinct.  :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_(psychology)

 

by joanro on 18 September 2018 - 19:09

There is no "confusion", it is as I described.

Wikipedia is not talking about training dogs. It's psychology for humans...people and dogs have very different brains. 

If trained behavior ever became " extinct" there would never be any reason to brush up on training a dog has not used for, perhaps, years...not retraining it, but brushing up or ' reminding' the dog of past and 'forgotten' training.

Extinct means errased from existence.....can't be brought back, as in extinct species. The only way training is going to be errased is to kill the dog or else brain dead the dog.

Obsolete means not useful or not used....simple example; changing a dog's name. Train the dog to respond to a new name is to replace the unwanted name...to make it obsolete. Old owner coulld get his dog back years later, call him by the old name and the old name is brought back to the surface, no longer obsolete.

by apple on 19 September 2018 - 11:09

Rather than saying the behavior gradually stops occurring, it is probably more accurate to say you will see an extinction burst or increase in the behavior after reinforcement has stopped and then a gradual decline in the behavior. It the behavior was strongly learned/reinforced, it will likely pop again some time in the future.

by joanro on 19 September 2018 - 12:09

Apple, sorry to say, but your words are put together in such a way, that they are meaningless.

by apple on 19 September 2018 - 15:09

What did I say that does not have meaning to you. It is very common to see an extinction burst following discontinuation of reinforcement. What do a lot of people do when they put their money in a drink machine and nothing comes out?
Prager

by Prager on 19 September 2018 - 18:09

Description of conditioning and extinction of conditioning has nothing to do with to what species it is applied. I can condition a cow and let the conditioning extinct, Same can be done with apes, birds, cats, fish, .Or maybe even  to one cell organisms who have no brain. 

Here is a sentence from a scientific study I have read recently which studied single cell organisms : "Hennessey (1979) showed that the single-celled ciliate Paramecium caudatum mightParamecium caudatum Ehrenberg, 1833.jpg possibly be capable of being classically conditioned. ............Our circuit also exhibits extinction as observed in Pavlovian conditioning". I have watched Paramecium caudatum ( in Czech Trepka velka) in 4th grade with a microscope. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582189/

In any case, even if you would be right.  Pavlov described conditioning on DOGS and thus he defined extinction of conditioning on DOGS.

susie

by susie on 19 September 2018 - 19:09

You are the one that always talks about "learned behavior/default/no extinction possible" - I remember countless monologues about prey/civil -
now you all on a sudden argue contrary - doesn't fit, but who cares?
Prager

by Prager on 19 September 2018 - 19:09

@ Susie Obviously you care enough to comment. 

Oh, I see where is your confusion. You are mixing learning and conditioning in my arguments in a mistaken belief that they are one and the same. Let me help you.

1/Extinction or as some call it extinguishment or you can call it the disappearance of the conditioning is related to,...well.. conditioning.:)

2/Defaut, on the other hand, is related to learning. Those are 2 separate issues.

Just because conditioning has extinct or as some may call it is got extinguished or disappeared, does not mean that the knowledge and subsequent behavior accrued by process of learning,  also disappeared.


susie

by susie on 19 September 2018 - 19:09

Please reread your post 😎

by joanro on 19 September 2018 - 20:09

If I put money in a drink machine, and nothing comes out, I go to the clerk in the store and ask for a refund.
My dogs have not mastered the use of vending machines yet. But they are getting there.

I wish an extinction burst would bring back the mastadon....I'd love to see one walking around.

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