Old school German Shepherds - Page 21

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by ValK on 25 April 2018 - 00:04

i agree with what Centurian said in last post. 
obviously i can't judge the dogs from beginning of past century other than over the old pictures and comparing 
physical changes between them and modern dogs. damn, i even didn't have till 90s opportunity to compare then 
our GSDs to ones, produced in other countries, so i can't even judge western dogs from 70s-80s. but what i see 
now is real disappointment in comparison to what i used to see in GSD. 
what i see now is highly marketed breeding to produce mainly pet quality dogs. sure they are offered in varying 
selection, from "couch surfers" to hyperactive "ball-killers", sort of  to fit lifestyle of future owners for any taste and
level of activity. what i can't find it's an undoubted reliability based on dog's selfsuficiency, selfconfidence, calmness 
and intelligence
i can't proclaim that such dogs do not exist anymore but back then (70s-80s which i did experienced) wasn't been 
extremely hard task to find such. now... even communication with good breeders shows they either didn't have 
interest or never seen such type and accordingly have no experience and clue that such dogs may exist. 
they just produce what is fashionable trend today and mass market demand, sincerely believing that that is perfect type 
of german shepherds.

by joanro on 25 April 2018 - 01:04

How about you guys with all the experience with perfect gsd show us, who don't have a clue what a gsd is, some videos of a moment in the day of what a perfect gsd looks like.

by beetree on 25 April 2018 - 01:04

My perfect GSD today is Mojo. He is just as smart as Teddy, my first all black GSD from the 70’s...

Golly, I just love GSDs!

by joanro on 25 April 2018 - 02:04

I hear ya, beetree. But you couldn't possibly have a good gsd...according to all the experts, the gsd breed is doomed, nothing left, woeisme, all the good gsd are dead and gone... never produced any pups to carry on their greatness....any perfect gsd from the olden days that actually were able to breed, had their progeny destroyed by stupid breeders who should be ashamed, and pay restitution to all the experts who can't find any good gsd these days....alllll gone ....nope, no gsd worth feeding left on earth. Guess the gsd should be classified as a rare breed now. /s


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 25 April 2018 - 06:04

Joan: Teeth Smile

 

I note we still haven't got a definition of when "dogs today" starts, guys.

 

Sunsilver, of course some parts of the breed have changed physically over the years; nobody says that they have not.  But shape does not directly affect temperament. And this thred is all about temperament, although there may be the odd spin off into the strength to jump fences, whatever, surely that is less the meat of this thred than are things like:

- the ability to 'discriminate' between 'valid' targets, and others

- absolute reliability: around children, out in public spaces, etc

- determination: the ability to 'stick at' whatever task it is given, without wimping out or becoming bored with a target or a search

- degree of intelligence - or trainability (and ways to define which is which) - that allows the dog to make (independent ?) decisions, about where to go & how to be;                                                                                                                              

THIS LIST IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE

We do at least seem to have established that nobody here is old enough to be talking about dogs back before the 40s (and from the beginnings of the breed). I.E. the first half-century of its existence.  So perhaps that is a parameter that should be made clearer in these sorts of thred topics ?

 

Centurian: you say "Temperament is genetic" and therefore immutable.  Can I remind you that nobody has yet identified a gene (or genes) controlling temperament, in the dog genome (or for that matter in any other species as far as I am aware) ?

 

Yet you go on to admit that variation CAN occur, because environment / training etc can have a modifying effect.  So a dog is either born with, eg, discriminative intelligence, because its forbears had it;  or born with none, because somewhere along the line it got bred against / out. To fully establish if that is true, one would have to have observed every single dog born, multiple times.  None of us have / would be able to do that. Alternatively, no proper statistical studies have been made. For which the parameters would have to have been pre-defined in the way I have asked for them.  I still argue that there are variations and degrees between individual dogs and what they are 'born with'.

I still prefer to start from the point of the descriptions of what the, then new, breed SHOULD be like temperamentally and CAPABLE of doing as implied in the ORIGINAL Breed Standard, in what I am looking for in a 'good' dog of the breed. Any later tweeks and what they imply have been about what PEOPLE have decided they wanted, rather than what was originally intended.

So we are reduced to 'he said / she said' personal opinion, as expressed here daily. And I am serious about those parameters including geographical ones.  Not for nothing have Susie and I and some others argued, in our different ways, that the overall picture being presented can be misleading in terms of the total GSD breed in our own countries.

 

by apple on 25 April 2018 - 11:04

Joanro,
I think when someone says a GSD is good, the question should be asked, "Good for what?" Some breed for a more versatile dog. Some breed more for police/military type dogs. Some breed sharper dogs for PP/property protection. Some breed for herding, although the true true herding lines are all but gone. Some breed for more of a pet/family dog. Some breed for top sport dogs. That is why potential buyers need to do their homework and learn what they can about pedigrees from as many sources as they can. My ideal GSD is a dog that has the genetics to be a very good police dog, a very good PP dog, and be able to do well at sport at least above club level. Also a clear headed dog with discernment who is social to aloof, good with children, but will fight a man for real.

by joanro on 25 April 2018 - 11:04

Apple, I concure with you. My post had a /s at the end, which indicates sarcasm. It gets tiresome hearing people constantly droning on with the false claims that there are no 'good' gsd left. But they don't delineate what they mean by 'good' as you have pointed out. But all they do is complain and bash. Let's see what they produced...heck, I put several clips of gsd with children, because supposedly the gsd of today ( especially the work line/sable) are so crazy they can't be aroun around children. Sure SOME are indeed crazy, but just as all law abiding citizens are to be punished and pay with restrictive laws because of the criminals' behavior, the sound sable gsd are condemned and all are lumped into the same category as crazies, or 'couch potatoes' if they aren't crazy enough to be put into that category.

It gets old.

Apple: My ideal GSD is a dog that has the genetics to be a very good police dog, a very good PP dog, and be able to do well at sport at least above club level. Also a clear headed dog with discernment who is social to aloof, good with children, but will fight a man for real.

Me: with the exception of sport above club level , you describe what my ideal gsd is as well, and what my goal in breeding is. Thank you for articulating that well thought out statement.

by Centurian on 25 April 2018 - 14:04

Hund Many people do not fully understand the term " temperament " as the word is utilized in the Canine world..
Temperament , is an overall all descriptive word that reflects a dog's mental , physiological state as made evident by a dog's behavior and by the dog's response to environmental conditions. That is to say temperament is a representation of the dog's neurological state and that is predetermined by it's genetic factors. These factors are expressed through it's behavior , which can be to a degree reasonably be quantified . They are not merely interpretation. Genetics determines for example one's ability to endure stress , one's ability to endure pain , it's sociability quotient , it's intelligence , it's recovery time to the unknown that startles it. All these predetermined genetically based traits contribute to the overall formation of a dog's ' temperament.
Genetics in dogs govern behavior , however learning / environment , socialization can affect the expression of those genetic traits that make up temperament , but they can never ever eliminate what the dog was born with . That is to say : you can't make a dog or a person what they are not. The character of a dog can be changed , but you cannot change it's genetics. Character  is not genetically determined or a trait. Stress level , the ability to handle STRESS ,  has  a genetic Basis. You can never  change that neurological ability of a dog to handle more stress than it is naturally , genetically , capable to handle. Confidence is an aspect of character develoment , meaning some one can have very little confidence but through learning and exxperience increase that person or dog's cofidence. You cant increase someone's ability to endure stress , nerve as some call it. That is to say , in a sound or an unsound dog , you can enhance or destroy confidence , but you can increase or decrease some one's stress level.  .
So Hund for you to say that no one gene for has been found that is because temperament is not based on 1 factor or gene !!! . And not fining any one gene ... that does not dismiss the fat that genetics is the basis for the expression of behavior. Also there is a physical component to temperament too, that governs how a dog thinks , feels and responds to it's environment. . For example a fearful dog will , as an autonomic physiological response react to it's environment , such as by raising of the hackles. That is to say not only a mental but there is exists a physical behavioral component that is expressed to it's environment and they can be measured.

Apple ,,,, yes good is an overall generalized term subjective . And you are correct that one has to use the word in context to that purpose of the dog. I will tweak what you have written a bit . Even if we acknowledge that .. we can understand that even with the different purposes for GSD I can understand how the word good vs not as good may apply . For example , we understand a GS can simply be a home companion dog , bred solely for that purposely . But in this example , should we expect a GS to run behind it's owner in the face of something of a minor stressor in the environment or a GS that does not recover when startled when something new faces it ? In this light , it is not very easy to say compared to GS from years ago , this is not a good dog. ? So by use of the word  'good' we must look at the dog's behav ior in relation to what the breeding goal is and evaluate that dog through it's behavior to see if that is normal or abnormal . Is it normal for a pet dog to run away from a truck coming towards it , yes . But is it normal for a pet dog to run behind it's owner if someone non threatening is approaching ? NO. So  , to trioeterate , yes different purposes for different dogs , but even in that case even nthe average person can differentiate between a good dog and one not so good. 

Also Apple , yes I agree with what you wrote about a good GS , absolutely ... but I keep something else in mind too. Given a dog should have 1 job to do and do that job with excellence , I consider what I want from a cadaver or bomb detection dog and a Search and Rescue is genetically very different make up than I would want from a Police dog , maybe even a type of sport dog.. I keep in mind as long a the breeding is sound these dogs and traits have their place in today's world. Again , the expression of the dog's genetics through nit's behavior , that is the determing factor that seperates good from not so good , IMOp. 

So again , IMOP we do see , a very observable event , the GS changing in mentality over time. I have had show lines not so far back .. about 1998 and I woud put those dogs into any avenue. One was police capable , another  did French Ring and Sch , another Personal Protection..  Ol' School   ?? maybe I see this topic very differently   , Maybe there is no such comparison ,Ol' School vs current day ?  . Then again  ,  try to get me one of those SL GSs now .  WL ... I leave that open but I always asked myself this question  : If the GS is one ofnthe best working dogs in the world , and at one time it was the best working dog in the world for a number of reasons, then why did a time come when many Law Enforcement canines from many divisions in the USA switch over to using a multitude of Malinois ?  You would they would want the est dog for that work . So WL ... what are we to think about current day GS mentality and hve they changed such that unspoken even the LE shy away from them ? Who knows ?? 


by Allan1955 on 25 April 2018 - 15:04

As i wrote once before 1955 stands for the year i had my first GSD. IMO old school is related to someones personal journey with the breed.

My definition of old school related to mentality of the breed might not be the same as someone els. Whenever we compare dog from a certain era to today we must consider the reality of live within that era. Then it become obvious why dogs were like they were in at certain point in time.  Someday in the future we will be the old school people refer to. As the breed keep evolving for better or worst, will be the judgement of someones personal journey.

 

by apple on 25 April 2018 - 16:04

Temperament is a more global term that is made up of various traits that are genetically determined such as prey drive, thresholds, defense, nerves, etc. It is not about a single gene for temperament. When a breed becomes very popular, it declines. Breeding correctly requires a lot of knowledge and skill. You have to be able to read a dog correctly and expose him to much more than a sport title to determine if he/she is breed worthy. IPO has become a double edged sword for the breed. Breeding a dog developed as a working dog for conformation shows does a great disservice to the breed. And the majority of the people that make up the market for the breed are not that informed IMO. And not all breeders are scrupulous. Years ago I bought a pup out of the North American Schutzhund Champion. I was guilty of not being that informed at that time. The breeder who was the handler as well, knew he could sell pups because the dog was the N.A.schh champion. There was no understanding of the likely genetics of the pedigree. The sire or dam were not proven producers. The pup I got was a decent dog, but overly defensive. There are some very good breeders and dogs being bred, but you have to do a ton of research to find them.

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