by susie on 24 April 2018 - 18:04
I am able to think back / had personally hands on the dogs of the seventies ( born around GSDS in the early sixties).
I remember a lot of either timid or sharp dogs. "Well balanced" ? Not more than today, I'd say less ... and during that time I was a member of DVG, not affected by "showlines" at all.
My grandfather, who was involved in dogsport since the 30s of the last century, was amazed about the positive development of the breed ( he died in the late eighties ).
I guess all of us do have their own memories, so it depends...
by joanro on 24 April 2018 - 18:04
There certainly is not a problem with asking if MY dog is safe with children, or if puppies from me are safe with children, temperament wise. Of course! that is a fair question.
BTW, centurion, did you not see the two dogs the person was asking about whether the dogs were safe with children? The video answers the question, he did not need to ask it.
But he asked a hypothetical question meant to be answered in his words, (in fact he dictated the verbatim answer he expected). I answered it in my own words, which he chose to turn into something twisted and completely untruthful.
Being a responsible dog owners is paramount to owning any dog, no matter if its a chihuahua or a great Dane or anything in between. I expressed that and he besmerched my dogs and myself with my answer.
I have had past experience with that activist and his 'girl friend' from a few years ago, when they asked me to rescue a gsd from a dog pound fifty miles east of me that was posted here on pdb. I found both have very nasty tempers and were abusive to me and an elderly friend of mine, who helped me get the dog out of the pound.
Being screamed at and verbally abused was the reward my elderly friend and I received for doing them a favor by saving an old gsd from euthanasia...which turns out they had a 'client/customer' for.
So I know what he was doing here when he asked a question that he was using to bait me so that he could trash me.
The dog pound said the dog was sick with a leaky bladder...the 'girlfriend' told me to 'take him to the very best vet Hosp' in my town, which i did. The old dog needed bladder surgery to remove a huge bladder stone. The 'girlfriend' said tell the vet to go ahead, she'd reimburse me.
But seems my lack of willingness to front a over a thousand dollars for the surgery , and making 'girlfriend' call the hosp and give credit card for guarantee payment before surgery didn't set well with the activist duo. Plus I made them arrange transportation for the dog to their place... he stayed with the vet till the Hosp released him to ground transport the duo had to pay for themselves....that *really* made them mad.
Getting involved in real life with strangers from this board can turn into a very bad experience.
by Sunsilver on 24 April 2018 - 18:04
You only have to look at pictures of past siegers and siegerins to see how the breed has changed over the years. I think to debate whether the dogs have changed or not is a pretty pointless exercise. The changes are so obvious!
Temperament has changed too. You rarely see GSDs being used as guide dogs for the blind anymore, and they used to be considered the best dog for this task.
To sum it up in a nutshell, you get what you breed for. Previously, the GSD was considered a generalist. I forget who said it, but they were described as being the second best dog for whatever task you chose to do with them, whether herding, police/military work, family companion or guide dog.
Now, for example, the ASL dogs are bred mainly to trot around the show ring with as long a trot as possible, and look good doing it. Yes, many ASL dogs are entered in performance events too, but it is almost never the same dogs you see taking top places in the show ring. And let's face it, it's usually the champion show ring dogs that everyone wants to get puppies from.
Same goes for the German show lines - the protection phase of the sieger show has become very much secondary, and many dogs do poorly at it, and still place well in the overall standings.
The working lines are being selected for extreme prey/ball drive, to get the maximum number of points in IPO competitions. This sometimes mean they are so high drive that they have difficulty switching off, and being good house dogs.
Yes, I am (over) generalizing to make a point, obviously. I know there are working line dogs out there with excellent 'off' switches. One of them is lying in her crate beside me right now...
by susie on 24 April 2018 - 18:04
Sun, your dog isn't the exception, but still the norm, at least in my country, be it a workingline, be it a showline.
The only difference-we don't tend to make use of crates.
We are talking about differences in character; conformation changed for sure, in some cases to the better ( never forget: there is a standard, and during the lifetime of Stephanitz no dog ever reached this written standard ) in some cases to the worse ( like roached back, over angulation ).
You are no German, so you don't know the bitework on the Siegershow didn't exist at all, but was introduced because the dogs of the late sixties/early seventies were not abe to compete at all any more. SV wanted to BETTER the temperament when the bitework was introduced. During the first years the dogs had to bite only, no out at all, leaving the helper - who cares? Command "down" - no problem- better down than leaving the helper too far... Running as fast as possible to grab the dog? No problem at all...
That's the seventies and the eighties...
The bitework on the Siegershow became more difficult year after year - healing off leash now, the dog has to out, the handler has to wait far away...
Personally I regret the current President cancelled the 1-5 points system, but honestly-who cares? After all, it's a show, it's about conformation first and foremost, and people, although able to watch the bitework of every dog for free worldwide on internet, don't care about the bitework results, but await the offspring to perform like a IPO champion - crazy world, isn't it ???
That much about "oldschool"...
by susie on 24 April 2018 - 19:04
Today Malinois and X-crosses seem to be the "best" police dogs, Goldens and some other breeds seem to be the "best" guide dogs for the blind, Australian Herders and Boarder Collies seem to be the "best" herding dogs, so what?
Malinois are not able to herd or guide the blinds, Goldens are not able to protect or herd, Australians are not able to guide the blinds or protect...
by Sunsilver on 24 April 2018 - 19:04
Susie, just wanted to make it clear, my dogs choose to 'chill' in their crates during the day. I leave the door open. The young one is only confined to the crate at night, because she thinks it's fun to chase the cat in the wee hours of the morning!
by susie on 24 April 2018 - 19:04
by Centurian on 24 April 2018 - 22:04
Hund... I was referring as Ol' school Gs from the 1950/1960 period compared to today 2018 in general . But , I imagine if were to compare the GS from 1800 ish to 1950 , I would speculate that the GS may even have been different in certain respects from those two era's also .
Hund , you should understand this . This is fact Hund , not opinion . Temperament is fixed . It can never ever be altered to be made better or to have matured over time. That is because temp. is genetically based and if the genetics aren't there at birth there is no way to add them after birth . . A dog's character however , can be enhanced or destroyed ' . I think when all the previous posters have written about selection .. they are spot on. I will just highlight that with the ' selective breeding ' two things resulted ; The schism of the GS dog into sl and wl . And I have see from about 1998 - 2018 , over the past 20 + years with intensified selection an even more deeper change in both SL and WL. This is empirical observation on my part. Changes in WL resulting in abnormal aggression for one example . In SL , I see almost the total loss of protection , working capability , with such low stress levels , that make GSs more mild than Golden Retrievers. So Hund I make reference to Ol School 1950/60 to today , but I also see two waves of changing. Whether from 1800 to 1950 , or from 1998 to today , or the whole spectrum taking into account , the GS has evolved / changed and now the change in mentality is undeniable.
Susie .. I partly agree with your post . The mentality of the GS is changing from what I understand , overall . yes in Germany too . However , I do acknowledge what you wrote. However , I don't think perhaps to the degree that we see compared to outside Germany. I made a reply to Duke... seconding someone's post further back regarding the police GS in Germany . There seems to be a consensus that their mentality is changing .
Now IPO or sport I speculate about this . AS I wrote may not be to the degree outside Germany . But I speculate that this does to a degree has also occurred in the sport GS in Germany too , ??? maybe to a lesser degree. In IPO as I have written , temperaments and flaws can be easily hidden and masked. Also what people see in the sports GS is just that ..they see a GS doing a routine , a patterned ,well choreographed and rehearsed routine. So I speculate about the change in sports WL GSDs. I don't readily say or deny that the mentality hasn't changed in Germany because IPO is flawed.
I can try to extrapolate that since the selective breeding affected other GS such that their mentality has changed , what would make me think that this like wise is not so in Germany too ? that in working GS in other avenues has changed . In IPO as I have written , temperaments and flaws can be easily hidden and masked. Also what people see in the sports GS is just that ..they see a GS doing a routine , a patterned ,well choreographed and rehearsed routine. So I speculate about the change in sports WL GSDs mentality too. And I don't mean all . I mean enough GSs to make a difference from previous times. I don't readily say or deny that the mentality hasn't changed in sports GS in Germany. But I have a tough time not thinking that it is also so because IPO is flawed . I ask myself , why wouldn't one expect that mentality as with everything else , has not also changed. ? Is Sport GS special and different than other avenues ? Then again I am not in Germany , I don't say with certainty because I am not there . However I tend to I keep an open mind that indeed it has changed in sport as it has with the police GS in Germany . My other theory , the more the money to be made the more the mentality and the dog has changed. [ ruined] . Just another wild speculation and theory ...
by Sunsilver on 24 April 2018 - 22:04
My other theory , the more the money to be made the more the mentality and the dog has changed. [ ruined] Oh yeah, money will do it every time!
by joanro on 24 April 2018 - 22:04
The two dogs in that video was the basis for the question asked. And I believe that reliability of gsd in public in pertinent to the topic.
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