Shutzhund Requirement? - Page 4

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by Centurian on 13 March 2018 - 23:03

Jesse nice post ...

Schaferhund ... Schutzhund.... [ I understand the terminology ] But , Interesting. Because in a manner of thinking and perception , does not a herding dog have to also be one dog that protects ? If yes , then you can say those two words to a degree , can be construed as one and the same ? Now part of the downfall of the GS , from a point of view, or you could in an abstract way say , should be both Scahferhund and a Schutzhund . The GS of years ago was a dog that was extraordinarily and capable , efficient and proficient in many tasks, !

What has happened , like many vocations in life , overtime , specialties were created . One GS for this endeavor and one GS for that endeavor , different jobs , created different bents of GS . This specialization has created subclasses and drastically has changed the GS from originally what it was intended. BTW Show Lines , these GSs are to be considered already a totally different genetic subset of a GS. They lost much of the original genetic material and genetic traits of yesteryear. Same with working lines.. their genetics have changed in the other direction. There was a video on the PDB , I think it was Hundmutter's dog , maybe someone else's [ sorry if I got the wrong person/dog ] and in the video you can see this dog in different endeavors performing quite well . This was one hell of a good GS , anyone would want. This was reminiscent of GS of former years. An all round GS !! Frequently I write about the GS mentality ,overall and in general, in even working lines , and that it has drastically declined. All due to the breeding . Not paying attention , learning or adhering to breeding principles. But this would take a seminar to talk about [ and I don't think you want to read this from me HA HA ] . All that I can say , my apologies for not articulating more , but people like Gustav, Susie and Valk ... I know they clearly understand the change of mentality that I reference. Competing won't change this.. only conscientious educated GS breeders and knowledgable breeders can have a role in this. Not someone that joins a club and decides to breed because ...

by Hundmutter on 14 March 2018 - 07:03

I find myself agreeing with Jesse, Centurian, in that we are none of us (including Val, Susie & Gustav) so far apart, in that we all see the same things happening with the GSD breed (and none of them good) - but from different national etc angles / occupational perspectives, and thus we see things sliding downhill at different rates. I also agree that one of the problems has also been over-production; by those who are only interested in making money, sure, and do it from a position of ignorance; but sadly also from people in the breed who should know better !

The thing I keep coming back to, though, is what are we doing about that ? Clearly the SV has only got its heart partly in it; it is now issuing more (overdue) instruction about the presentation of the dogs, the 'global harmonisation' between Clubs and countries. But it isn't doing anything obvious to deal with accusations about slipping standards and irregularities in the SchH/IPO testing; it isn't really leading the way in any concrete sense as to how to tackle those very real (and universal) problems of lack of knowledge, failures to care enough about outcome, love of profit. I'm not suggesting I have answers, either - they are not obvious. In maybe the ONE breed where a surfeit of decent information has been written down (we have some of the best and most honest literature available in any breed IMO), provided you can locate it amidst some of the dross, and where we have conversations like this one on the 'Net, we still find people ignoring all that is known, and 'ploughing their own furrow'.

Do we then give up ? Do we concentrate energy on any ONE aspect of the dog (eg its ability to do bitework; OR its ability to be a big soft pet) to the extent of denigrating everyone else in the breed who wants to develop its equally useful other aspects ? Seems to me that would just tear us all further apart. Maybe it IS time to be defeatist, to give up and get out - I certainly don't see it getting any better, partly because - like so many things in this world - it has become so complicated, so diverse a breed that there are no immediately evident answers to the problems, it's become unmanageable. I am not ready to abandon it, personally.

Fascinating as this discussion is, I don't want to lose sight of the OP - her question did not, perhaps,

really invite such an in-depth discussion of the rights and wrongs of the breeding, or use of, the GSD. Although I hope she has followed her thred enough to get something of the right message, whether or not she eventually wants to breed with her bitch or train her in IPO (or anything else).

And btw Centurian, sadly, no you will not have seen a picture or video of any dog of mine on here, even one showing an all-round competance such as you describe. I wish !

by ValK on 14 March 2018 - 16:03

@Jessejones "While I like bite work, it is one of the ultimate challenges in handling a dog in the highest drive possible, it does a disservice to the GS in the way it is presented today. It should not go away, but needs to be amended. How? I don’t have that answer unfortunately."

solution is simple - just produce strong, confident and well balanced dogs.

regarding schutzhund, the first brick into it was laid back in 1921. sadly people don't understand or just had lost meaning of that exercise, seeing it as either, attack dog training or opportunity to demonstrate their skill to polish dog's performance (in supposedly simple temperament/agility test) to level of entertaining circus performance, which has as little practical use as show ring run.


by susie on 14 March 2018 - 19:03

Personally I don't think it's that difficult to find a stable GS dog.
The main problems are the internet sales, and the lack of will to train.
Buying dogs unseen, hopefully cheap, without any knowledge of the parents- what do people await to get?
On the other hand even the most talented pup may have problems later on in case it's not raised and educated well.
People are lazy and uneducated - the result is neurotic dogs, not able to fulfill the dreams of the owners.

A puppy needs to experience the world instead of sleeping in the backyard-
A trained / titled dog needs to train with it's new owner
A show dog needs regular show training
A personal protection dog needs to know what to do ( didn't want to stress the word "training" again ).

Money is not able to buy everything, and a dog is no machine.

by Gustav on 14 March 2018 - 19:03

There are some excellent posts, by all in this thread...a lot of historical and empirical knowledge.
I think Hundmutter’s last post succinctly summarizes a lot of things.
I don’t have a reasonable answer to the breed problem. I’ve spent a lifetime with this breed, and I’ve been blessed to have bred, worked, and trained some good dogs. Fortunately, I know good dogs, and know what to stay away from.....but as with anything else, there is good everywhere and there is substandard long as we truly be truthful about the breed I think the breed continue to have some bright spots both here and in Europe.

by Hundmutter on 14 March 2018 - 19:03

You are right Susie in that, for us in Europe, it really isn't all that difficult [yet] to obtain excellent and stable specimens of the GSD. In America ? Well, it is probably not quite as bad as it is being painted there, either - BUT there clearly are some problems, with some stock; and that's not helped (as it isn't anywhere else, either) by the numbers being bred for money, or by the splitting between international type dogs + working lines in the both the SV following, and among WL people who even think the SV is unnecessary / wrong, versus the rest of the US with its concentration on AKC 'type' dogs and its huge amount of 'pet' breeding. And that is before you even look at what might be happening around the rest of the planet. Or at minority take-up of health testing, or consideration of the results of health testing when breeding. Or the continuing minority interest, as you point out yourself, in becoming less lazy and more educated, and thus training to do anything useful with their dogs. NONE of which is 'good for' the German Shepherd Dog as a breed across the whole world.

Saying its okay and we can still get good dogs, does not tackle, either, the problems (real or perceived) with the testing system, whatever we call it this week; or with finding even a few dogs who 'wash out' on test if they really should not have done, and what to do - or attempt to do - to stop the rot. I was not making excuses for those in simply pointing out that a) its still a minority, & b) there can be mitigating factors; that does not make it 'hunky dory'.

Nor does it serve to put more 'breeders' into the mindset of breeding properly and responsibly, or not breeding at all. It does not stop breeders thinking that exagerating an improvement - as many see it - to the structure of the dogs to assist gaiting and movement, can go on and on unchecked, until it becomes something less desirable, without thinking through the consequences. Which we have certainly seen as much in Europe over the last couple of decades as in any other country.

If everyone in Germany took up a "well, we are alright, Jack" position, the wonderful breed your country has given the rest of the world may continue to deteriorate until you want to drop the 'German' off its title altogether ! This is not to lay all the responsibility for sorting the situation out better on the SV's doorstep, but it might help if there was a bit more 'push' to work out improvements from them, and an honest participation in what exactly owners, internationally, think is wrong with the IPO. What they have done recently is perhaps a move in the right direction but has been too long in coming, and may be seen as "too little, too late" by some.

by Centurian on 14 March 2018 - 20:03

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments .. Sincerely.

Is nice to have a discussion that was not about personal bashing whether we agreed or disagreed . Nice to hear everyone's viewpoint about a topic instead of how someone has gotten ripped off buying a dog !

by susie on 14 March 2018 - 20:03

Hundmutter, for me all those uneducated, lazy people are the real problem, willing to pay good Dollars for mediocre dogs.
The breeders do satisfy this market - right now first and foremost the East Europeans.
Prior to the world wide web GSDS that didn't fit the standard were given away for free, today they are sold for a lot of money.
In my country almost nobody who wants a "pet dog only" even thinks about buying a GSD, we know this breed needs education and something to do.
I have been in a lot of countries ( show handlers get around a lot ), and most of the times I thought: these people should not own GSDs, plain and simple.

About the SV - in my personal opinion the so called "globalisation" without rules was a major problem. WUSV allowed other countries to do whatever they want, but potential buyers believe to buy a "real" GSD.
Now they are trying to enforce some International rules, to the same time lowering our own rules... too late...

I don't think the GSD has to be the international breed no 1 -
less dogs = in the best case better quality, countries who don't follow our standard may create their own shepherd, but not a "German".

Just my opinion, nobody cares.


by Jessejones on 14 March 2018 - 21:03

You took the words right out of my typing fingers.
Yes to paragraph 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Everything you mention is correct and adds to this complex issue.
Each paragraph you wrote could be discussed in great detail, if we were sitting at a Stammtisch (sorry, can’t really translate that one...basically a round table discussion, usually with beer, wine and food in the local pub/restaurant for brunch on Sunday mornings)
Globalization and the SV...big problem. Because of the popularity of the GS worldwide, there will never be enough qualified people to enforce what the Germans have done and to make an efficient system. It takes years of education, dedication, doing and studying (and lots of free time and money). In the meantime in these other countries, I can sell my mishmash pups for a few thousand $ without much effort because that is what many Americans (mostly) will pay.
As long as ranking dogs can bring in boatloads of money, the question is, how to change anything in this time of globalization.
I too wanted to say to everyone thanks for contributing.
I did go back and re-read every single post several times. Lots of wisdom here indeed.

by Hundmutter on 15 March 2018 - 10:03

I used to frequent a Bier Keller here in England, when I was very young - it got a bit noisy to count for a Stammtisch !

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