Shutzhund Requirement? - Page 2

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by susie on 11 March 2018 - 18:03

Thank you, Jesse, the best post I read for a long time.
Yes, for Germany there is no circumventing the rules.
It's either
1. IPO
3. RH2
but always followed by the
Without 1/2/3 or 4 followed by 5 no pink papered puppies...

No system in which living beings are involved ( dogs, handlers, judges ), but "something" is better than "nothing".
The fact that any breeder who wants to keep working ability either imports titled dogs once in a while, or at least makes use of a titled stud speaks for itself.
Take a look at the Alsatians or at the ASLs- would you buy one of those pups in case you really want to work your dog later on?

Personally I would love to see SV acknowledging ZVV, Ringsport, Mondio titles, too, but always followed by the breed survey - afterall we are talking about a breed, not about the best working dog, no matter it's conformation.

by Centurian on 12 March 2018 - 01:03

I think ... the cart is put before the horse.
The dogs are not the problem . people are the problem.. I think the people should be scrutinized , not the dogs. Seriously , Tom , ** , and Harry , think they can be a breeder. That is just not so . I have seen a good number if people in Europe - more than 1 country , people in USa that couldn't train a dog to excel at an endeavor , i.e. protection , sport yet they understand the Gs and have an eye and the knowledge to excel at breeding ! phenomenal breeders . At the same time I see people that do well titling their dogs and working the dogs , that are so ignorant to what breeding entails - how to produce and select mates etc for a well planned goal and outcome ! I think , IMOp the people are the ones that need to show competency and credentials in order to breed .. That is my take . BTW .... in many sports , the sport itself, not just the dog, has become polluted and corrupted by the greed of people and the money !
PS .. what I get a kick out of and what I am so embarrassed by .. when I go to the High End GsS shows and I see a GS dismissed from the pre show protection because it failed the work . Really a Sch 3 GS , fails the pre protection before the show.. So folks try to understand.. I don't bash Sch or any SPORT .. but this is s simple example of the hypocrisy .. A Sch 3 dog .. fail the bite work .... Goodness gracious .. I have 7 month GSs , many , that would pass that .. So .. what do you folks think about the value of titles now ??


by Hundmutter on 12 March 2018 - 08:03

Much as I'm inclined to agree with your assessment about (some of) the people involved, Centurian, I think you are overgeneralising on your latter point about dogs being failed out at major Shows even though they are already SchHIII. Yes we know it DOES happen; yes we can guess it is on occasion 'political' / down to Breeders' kennel rivalry or Club position, not about the dogs at all (although it seems to me to be pretty difficult to fake or misinterpret much in bitework, especially in front of an audience); - but it isn't a majority of dogs DQ'd, is it ?- which it would need to be, to make full sense of your underlying accusation about the quality of the SV's protection exercise.

I am more inclined to believe that, in most cases, this is about the atmosphere of the larger shows, noise  from the crowds (and they can be incredibly noisy !), tension on the part of Handlers & owners, etc.  Just as sometimes a purely Showdog can spook out under circumstances where it really should not (Crufts a couple of years ago being a stirling example !).  I don't think that is always such a realistic comment on the dog's temperament under every other, 'normal' circumstance; sure we could wish that every dog is of such sound character that it IS completely 'bombproof', but maybe our [human] expectations are sometimes a little unreasonable, in that ?


by susie on 12 March 2018 - 12:03

Hund, at Friday during bitework it's about performance only...
But people tend to forget it's a show, no trial.
That said some people enter beautiful dogs although they know they may fail.

But honestly, who is the fool? The guy trying to get a good looking dog through the performance, or the breeder that saw this and still breeds his female to this dog, or the puppy buyer, well aware of it?

The big advantage: thanks to modern media the bitework of the BSZS is visible world wide - no excuse ...

Back to titling or not- without proof and competition I can tell you everything I want...
and without training I will never know about the quality of my own dogs.

About " training only" - it's not that difficult for a dog to bite a sleeve - that's why we see such a huge amount of training videos, missing the out, missing the pressure, missing the whole obedience part.
Anybody who ever trained some dogs for the "whole package" knows what I am talking about.


Edited, because I forgot...

It's always "our" fault, we make the breeding decisions, we are too lazy to get involved and gain knowledge, we try to satisfy the pet market, and we want to make money out of dogs.

by Centurian on 12 March 2018 - 13:03

Hund Yes not all dogs fail the bite work pre show.. but i think susie called this right in her last postwhen she talks about the people . That is what I began the post about .. the people . [ BTW I like her last post.. yes anyone knowledgable can tell a lot about a dog without competition ] .. when she talks about the people .

Hund expectations : yes and no ... YES : I will give a little slack because the way some people live in today's modern world with the GS , some GS may not have had the opportunity in growth and development to adapt to certain high stress environments.. A few GS , a give a little leeway , in that regard. Unlike my puppies i work in water , on concrete & different surfaces , proximal to city traffic with the sound of mack trucks, uses , bulldozers and the jackhammers. Again I grant country folk may not have this opportunity .. Nor do i kennel my dogs , take them out to work them put them back . I never ever had to crate my dogs , the ' think tank' bit [ BTW that is sensory deprivation IMOp] to increase their motivation to work . My GS were always ready , willing and able ! All my working dogs live in my house, some of my police officer friends , their dogs similarly lived in their homes too . They were quite sound in many traits , had great stress levels , had a great sense of discernibility . So ....I now say :

The 'No' , comes from the fact that the GS has become so divergent from my early days of having GSs. I saw a more uniform substantial temperament and mentality. Much much better than today , overall that is . Even two decades ago , some of my Show line GSs where police capable in training . Now , you are lucky to barely find a handful that can even handle moderate true life / real stress. Also , the working ine GS , their mentality has changed to . I often see , and I wrote about this many times on the PDB , police officers and sport people alike having poor or over aggressive GS . They don't even know their dog has unsound aggression ! Therefore the SL , WL both have been adversely affected by poor breeders. .. No , We cannot generalize to every single GS , but then on the other hand we can talk about emerging patterns that exist. I could be wrong... but from my experience and what I have seen .. the GS used to be a much much much stronger breed in several aspects..And I blame the people for now what is is no longer .. not the dogs. BTW .. my first GS in the 1960's was imported from Germany .. Just about all my other GS from that point on were from Germany , aside from a couple I bred and kept . So I see over almost 50 years ... there is a difference , a significant difference due to the breeding. Since this is a thread.. This is my experience - from others I wouldn't mind any agreement or rebuttal .

by susie on 12 March 2018 - 14:03

Cent, but how do you become " knowledgeable " ?
By sitting on your porch or by training, comparing, competing ? 😎

by ValK on 12 March 2018 - 16:03

dear ladies, "schutzhund" literally translates as "protective dog". there was a reason why not something like "arbeitshund" or "schönheitshowhund" but precisely "protection" term was used for tests exercise.
now, when you see the dogs performance at high rank competitions, do you realy believe these dogs in real life, if necessity arise, will protect you? i won't discusse representatives of show lines, which by default have hard time to decently run/walk.
but even dogs, competing in SchH/IPO, albeit physically being sound, almost all demonstrate mental infantilism, trait of "eternal puppies" to whom supposed perpetrator nothing else but a play buddy. how and why such imitation had become the staple of demonstration of protection abilities.

by Hundmutter on 12 March 2018 - 17:03

Hmmm.... it's all very well saying that they don't or shouldn't vary all that much, a knowledge gained from owning multiple GSDs in your lifetime, but you are still coming to that conclusion presumably from judging one dog against at most 2 or 3, at one time; plus a string of them, separated out from each other over the years you have owned and trained. Now this is just 'IMHO' but I think you only get a true picture of the degree to which characters vary, in even closely related individuals, when you are seeing them in a LARGE number, all together, over a period of years. Especially if they are free to relate to each other, as well as the handler.

And success at bitework does seem to me to be centred in the character of the individual dog, primarily, with genetics and standard of training working on top of that base.

by Centurian on 12 March 2018 - 17:03

Susie ..... I like when you ask respectful , legitimate questions...
So I begin by saying : We become what we think . having been what we once thought ! Therefore we become .... by our thinking .... How we think , what we think [about] , why we think [ how/why when and here we think . motivated we are to learn ] , . You will find most of the answers are found within the question . And if you want to find answers , you always include , asking the dog ! Best to find also the right resources and people to help you do that .
One time susie , you thought I was mean because in a discussion I required my dog to do something for them to get their meals . If I remember correctly , you said [ or someone else] that the dogs should be loved unconditionally . All family members should be loved unconditionally , but you missed the point : they should be loved responsibly to go with that . That is to say there is no love without discipline or without putting on responsibility to them ! What that does that have to do with your question :
If someone really really wants to learn ... you take on the responsibility and DO everything under the sun to achieve that . What I have found is that people want to learn about the GS , they want to breed .. but they are irresponsible , they lack commitment , motivation to do what it takes to truly learn . Breeding .. very very few people take the time to learn anatomy , structure , behavioral traits, the logistics of breeding to get what a goal is. So , they become what they think ....
At 10 years old , having my first GS , one of my dreams in life was to learn all that I could about and having one of the best in the world : the German Shepherd . In addition to my vocation .... I knew this would take YEARS. To understand animals , I watched every animal program religiously every chance I got.... I studied studied STUDIED , all the aspects of animals. I learned about their instincts , how they hunt, how they act ,how they use their senses , how they communicate , how they think and feel , and so on, so much else . In order to learn how to train I read and learned about ' Learning Theory ' and I took psychology courses . I read books on these subjects too. I read books on German Shepherds , their history their requirements as a breed. Max V. Stephanitz's book too. All this and more even before I ever went to a club.
My business was to look , listen and learn. I sought out the best people that could teach me : To better learn to train.. I travelled to other states to train with the best in mentor got a perfect score at the Bundessigerprufung and standing ovation by the Germans. Also I had gone to Germany to train with the Best !! That is to say I surrounded myself with those that did have the knowledge . They taught me many things , such as : how to evaluate a GS ,especially Temperament. I didn't learn form someone that trained for 5 years and thought he /she was an expert or from a club that just did the same old thing. I trained also with Belgiums and French , who shared their ideas too about training .Then at one point I had the Germans telling me to compete with my GS at BSP. I also opened my own training school and also worked police k9.
Same for breeding and showing. I made sure that I understood structure as well as any SV Judge. That meant for me not to just read a book , but to attend countless German Shepherd shows , Regional and National Shows where I could talk to people , listen to the judges and SEE with my mind's eye what was and was not. That is how I learned structure .. by DOING . Many Sch clubs in USA are geared to working line GS , they all don't have great expertise for showing ..I learned from the best , ' how to show ' . The many aspects of showing . I learned directly by those who placed at the top of the shows the teaching of the dog ,the grooming , the masking of flaws , the presenting of the best side of the dog, ring strategy /tactics etc.I watched the results of the shows in Germany too. I found the best breeders and they educated me ... What they do , don't do . what works and what does not work . How to beed for structure . How to follow the siblings and understand the lines and reasonably understand what success I may have or not have in breeding utilizing the info about the siblings and so on.
Suffice to say : Anything I could do , I did to try to better myself and learn. Whatever I could do , I did. I sought out those that did know, not pretend to know and surrounded myself with them . If I limited myself it a club.. that is all that I would learn .. what the club knew .. no more no less I would be no better or less than that club. . I set accepted the responsibility my goal , did everything possible to achieve it , with time , effort , sacrifice, Everything Academically , and Application.
This is the short rendition . Suzie .. some people think they learn by training and competing. Yes I suppose when you make mistakes . But with that mindset what I have found : some one gets a dog ..ruins it/ then they get a second dog ... they ruin that one too ... then they get a third dog... same 'ol , they ruin that dog then as the move on .. maybe from all the mistakes they have made and the dogs they ruined , they will have actually learned something. That is putting the cart before the horse. My advise : take responsibility to make it your business to interact with those that CAN teach you , look , listen and learn.. then try something like breeding, sport , etc ....

Last note : what I see in the USA , [ and not just for dogs] there are very very few mentors when it comes to the GS. Mentors are a dying breed. As one wrote .. there is no GS club in every USA town ... everything in USA is about membership and money in the clubs now... Much is competitive. God forbid you help someone for free in USA . ... Not the good comradeships that I experience in among the German , Belgium and French people !! Do all to Educate yourself by any means possible , reading , viewing shows , understanding animal behavior / learning and in addition , surrounding yourself with those that DO and that are willing to teach you , and then apply what you learn [ don't forget seminars given on canine topics : trainers give seminars , Canine reproduction experts frequently give smeinars ]. And yes you can learn a lot by sitting on a couch too !!  Various subject matter [ Operant conditioning ,Pavlovian Conditioning   , Training , Genetics, German Shepherd as a Breed ] Books/Magazines ,   DVD's  [ training , GS Anatomy, Seiger Shows ] , You Tube .  Look , Listen and learn from the best.  Look to serve as  an apprentice too. 


by susie on 12 March 2018 - 19:03

It was "someone else"...

My question was a rhetorical question, but you answered the same I'd answer - learn, learn, learn, I just don't tend to write that many words...
Sure you can "learn" on the porch/couch watching your dogs, reading book, watchIng a video - but only in case you learned how to compare; and that's something you can't learn by watchIng your own dogs Only. Even your best dog may be mediocre compared to others.
That said you have to compete/train with others to be able to compare.

In my country every fool knows a good pedigree doesn't guarantee a great dog, instead we know the chance to get a good one increases ( one of the reasons we are not willing to pay the ridiculous amount of money Americans are willing to pay..).
Not every puppy is able to inherit the traits we want ( statistically 50:50 in case both parents do carry those traits ).
That said - how shall I know the parents of my potential pup inherited the genetic traits I am looking for from their grandparents without testing/training/competing/titling ?

A pedigree is no guarantee, just a better chance.

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