Watered Down sport?? - Page 14

I love reading about LE dogs in US on this forum😎

susie and BW you are both way off on your facts, sorry,

really BW green dogs for $3000 all day long

duke, you were outright proven wrong on 6/7 of the last facts you've stated, and even that 1/7 was a stretch to call you "right." So I don't see any reason why anyone would ever believe anything you say anymore.

Geez, this thread makes me very proud to be the breeder of three, yes 3 certified Police k9s in New York.
I must be doing something right.
My dogs/pups are exposed to so many different scenarios beginning at birth.
There are several people here I learned plenty from, but me and my dogs basicly learned from each other.
Talking of the BH, when "I" caused my dog to fail the test at Shelley's years ago because I was so nervous I couldn't distinguish left from right, stage fright I guess, it was a rigorous routine that involved a good bit of OB, the judge told me it was ME, not my dog that failed the test.
It had to be me, another dog totally beat feet off the field, all around the house scared, BUT, that dog passed.

@ suzie, the worldwide brokers are buying in holland for over 25 years, that is not new, in holland demand is up and supplie is down, due to modern training/breeding the amount of dogs coming from IPO and KNPV that are suitable for policework is down, ask anyone in KNPV less civil dogs these days, more sportdogs

The dutch K9 centers are buying in eastern europe already for long time to meet the numbers they need, and several USA vendors already skip holland and go straight to central europe,

simple fact is that in these countries, were wages are low it is better to breed and raise dogs for LE, than take normal job

The prices mentioned by both you and BW are not actual, you certainly cannot get good dual dogs for $3000 any day, that was loooooong time ago

and actually  good dogs in the east are more expensive to get than in holland and germany, because of the demand overhere

 

BW shooting blanks again

I'll copy and paste:

back on topic, watered down sport

lets list some facts that are happening ore talked about

gunshot out of BH (breedingrequirement) – gunshot is still in the IPO1 (the actual breeding requirement) this was also covered in a prior post of why the BH requirements had changed

sit out of motion out of BH – sit out of motion is still in the IPO1 (the actual breeding requirement) this was also covered in a prior post of why the BH requirements had changed

certain people(FCI/IPO) try to change different exercises from "drive "exercises to clean obedience exercises – method of training, nothing to do with the rules, not mandated by the rules of the sport itself, personal choice of trainer

Bark and hold – what about the bark and hold? Last I checked it was still in there

Apport,(not throwing the dumbell anymore) – actually, you are still throwing the dumbbell…10 meters will just be clearly marked so that people try to throw the dumbbell a similar distance and not give an advantage to their dog if it needs more/less room to come straighter or if the further they throw the more drive/speed the dog shows or if it will only go a certain shorter distance

taking stickhits out – stick hits aren’t out. Countries where stick hits are not allowed by law will not have to do them, and if those countries host a world championship, the helpers will not need to hit the dog, but if any other country where stick hits aren’t prohibited by law hosts the world championship, the stick hits are still in. Countries themselves can decide what their qualifying events will do (use them or not) and most will most definitely still include them.

points down for dog that acts not happy on trail (compulsion) – how does that “water down the sport?” They want to see a happy/active dog? Make sure that the dog will actively track and not just do it because it’s been forced to? Yeah…that makes sense as something that “waters down the sport.”



Great information provided for the world!

So that's 5/6, and then you went on to try to make something up about a back transport which I also pointed out as incorrect. So that's 6/7. I'll give you credit for your confusing bark and hold comment but that was also debunked, but to make you feel better about yourself I'll throw you that bone.

oh please, you want to go point by point and have pissing contest , dig up an older post to avoid giving factual answer on your last post full of incorrectness,

You didn't ask anything...all you did was go with the patented tried and true forum move of "you're wrong" without actually providing any information to prove that I'm wrong. I provided well written statements of how you were wrong...I can also link the single website and write up/explanation from the USCA director of judges about the new rules if you'd like which disprove most of the things you've claimed.

Duke, I am not stupid, I was involved in dog sport in the late 70s already...
The first serious "working dog brokers" visited our club in the very early eighties ( Americans, in case you are interested I will pm you the names, maybe you are old enough to recognize the names ) - "show line brokers" way earlier.

You said: "... you certainly cannot get good dual dogs for $3000 any day, that was loooooong time ago..."

Reread my post, I talked about " good green dogs", not about "dual purpose dogs" - you know the difference.

I KNOW KNPV dogs are sold world wide for a lot of years , but for some time there seems to happen the "final sale" - not to police, but to international PRIVATE owners - that´s a magnificant difference.
The "trainer generation" willing to sell dogs to national police because of personal conviction by now seems to have vanished more or less - money talks even in the new KNPV generation.

Later on you said: "...simple fact is that in these countries, were wages are low it is better to breed and raise dogs for LE, than take normal job..."

so you confirmed my statement about the connnection of costs and prices. That´s exactly what I said...
I only don´t understand your statement "...and actually good dogs in the east are more expensive to get than in holland and germany, because of the demand overhere..."
Thinking about the minor costs within the Eastern countries ( way less to pay in case of rules, regulations, initial costs at all ), what does "overhere" mean? In case it means "East Europe", it doesn´t make sense at all, in case it means "International buyers like the USA" I simply would say "let the East European citizens learn some English, let them become part of the "big picture", and they will be fine on their own" - no more brokers needed, no more 60% seller/40% broker ( in case they found a honest broker, otherwise it may end with 25% seller/75% broker - that´s the truth, I met "proud" new owners too often, when to the same time I knew the "original" owner ...people talk... ). That´s what happened in Germany in the seventieth and in the eighties, and that´s what´s happening in the East European countries right now.
But I am not afraid - thanks to modern world ( internet ) the East is learning fast, building up connections on their own more and more. The "show line breeders" are leading, the "working line breeders" are following - and after a while even the East European dogs will be too expensive for "regular" police stations.
Happened with the GSD, happens with the Malinois ( and Dutch bred X-crosses ) for a while now, and will happen with the East European bred dogs soon, just give them some time.
The "Wild East" is learning fast...

I am German, I am able to talk about German police only - the amount of money German police is willing to pay for dogs is ridiculous compared to "International prices". A "broker" is not able to make any money by selling dogs to Germany as long as he doesn´t totally cheat the original dog owner.
The USA are different - some stations are willing to pay for seller and broker ( = too much for a dog ).