Watered Down sport?? - Page 12

TY Gustav, that is just the sort of explanation I am talking about, of a kind which probably only you and a very few other posters seem able (or willing) to write. In the interests of educating EVERYBODY, and remembering that readers include many who just lurk 'n' read, rather than posting, and that a lot of newer owners seem not to know anybody older than they are, who can teach about things like the detail in your ^^^ post, I'd like the 'regulars' to remember that you have proved it is possible, when a similar opportunity occurs. Again, my thanks.

I do have further questions following on the content of your post: why, I wonder, is 'everybody' here so quick to generalise, to see everything in the world from the American perspective, without recognition for example that a quarter of Guide Dog stock ('seeing eyes') in the UK are still GSD, mostly under the GDAssociations own breeding programme rather than from other breeders its true - but they must still be finding what they want in the dogs they use ? Bearing in mind the dogs they use are NOT all totally divorced from the 'modern' dogs, bred in the UK and Germany ?

Why does everyone seem to actively WANT to perpetuate the stuff about how Police Dogs are so detached from the bulk of GSD breeding (US and European) that Malinois are used instead, as though that were some 'universal truth', when the UK Police and military services are STILL using, and breeding, perfectly adequate g.p. dogs from UK and German, and Czech, stock; almost (not quite) to the exclusion of Malis or any other breeds ? And all without demanding the sort of 'hard' [aka savage monster] GSDs that SOME posters think have to be the way to fulfil the LE role ?

I take your point about the qualities you needed in the particular dogs you were running in 'Nam. But all dogs are still individuals, and some respond better to training in specific areas of work than do others - and dogs crap for one job description can still be wonderful in another. To answer your question, looking back over almost 50 years now - but including quite recent dogs born up to say 10 years ago (only 'cos I no longer know them well enough if I just see the more recent ones out & about ) - I can think of two or three I would have trusted to respond to the needs of the job you described. Obviously this is not 'most' of the dogs I have known; and of course I cannot prove this - I wasn't fighting in Vietnam and these dogs were not bred to find ones that could be Scouts ! But because a dog is bred in a time and place where it will not be called on for certain tasks DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFY IT FROM FITNESS FOR THOSE TASKS, it just means it isn't used that way and tested. I am willing to bet that not ALL of the German dogs, say of the 1930s, would have suited, either.  Nor the wider gene pool in Germany OR the US of the 1950s/60s/70s.

Anyway, I for one have never said we don't want / need some lines which consistently produce better, 'harder' dogs(in the sense you have described today); what I and others do dispute is that these should be the total sum of the Breed; or that they are automatically the same breedings which "fit" the obsession of some for ever 'cleaner, harder, more solid' biting, often to their apparent exclusion of every other skill factor in that dog. You say yourself the dogs you described were NOT 'bitework' dogs. If somebody is bitten in the act of escaping or assaulting a Police Handler, they don't usually worry that they have not been bitten hard enough or for long enough !

Not being someone who is actively working a dog, in any of the ways (that these others may regard as THE only way, for them), does not automatically mean that people who have had a great number of the breed through our hands cannot have developed the ability to "know" them, to assess what they could or may be able to do, given the chance, [and thus, actually, often to recognise dogs that are frankly being wasted, when they might achieve far more than expected of them]; so for some on here to disparage the knowledge of everybody who does not fit within the parameters of their own little elite is a bit rich, and extremely arrogant of them.  A lot of production may well be about numbers and money (on both sides of the Pond) but it isn't entirely sensible to insist & act as though there are NO other factors at work in dogs being bred even into the current day. End of rant !

Hundmutter, I understand....I don't think anyone thinks that there isn't a need for a broad spectrum in the breed, or that only savage dogs are the answer. I think that what many of us are saying is that a strong nerves working dog is the exception rather than the norm these days. And that weak dogs have become so common in our breed that these organizations have to resort to BM or Dutchies for LE and Labs or Goldens for other venues. THIS is the issue....there were weak GS back in the day, but it was infrequent. You almost never saw GS with tail tucked under stomach or that worried look in the eyes. This has become common place in some lines, or at least far to frequent. That's the issue.

@Hundmutter & Gustav

How long has it been since you have worked a dog in bite work? Not at the end of a leash but behind the sleeve or in a suit? I can see a lot from the sideline and come up with educated opinions about a dog from that bleacher side view but i can better see the dog's heart and character when i am in the fight against the dog. Training only brings a dog so far in the fight, but the genetics of the dog is truly reveled to me when its just him and i. Since you keep telling all of us about the character of the dogs from the 60's vs now, what are you doing to really determine this?

I just recently watched the 'Desert Dogs K9 Trials' and if these are the type of dogs you are reffering to as being 'lesser', i can understand your opion as 80%+ of those dogs should never be LE/Biting dogs. those were dogs that were trained to bite as you can see in thier work they had/have no natural drive to do so. Most of those dogs wanted out of the fight and it appeared that their initial training was that of 'making' the dog bite, probably from piss poor table work (just my opinion on what i saw). But LE and these types of trials have nothing to do with the sport of SchH/IPO/IGO and their is popular belief that those dogs that cant make it in this sport are generally washed out to LE & Military

cutaway, that populair believe is history, that used to be the case, but thats long gone

Hundmutter I simply was responding to the sport being watered down. From then to today, I think schutzhund or IPO as it is now called has become a joke from when I observed my first training session and first few trials yes, long ago. So I have seen it go down and down and down.

However you are right I do not post often because of the negativity that is a daily function on this site. I refuse to argue with people who spend all day looking to argue and downgrade each other on a non stop basis as I found out the hard way about 10 years ago! I much rather spend my time training my newly acquired GSD as well as training others.

I have a good friend in Florida who is into schutzhund. He trains PSDs, teaches obedience and boards. The club also hosts a schutzhund trial every year. I attended his training sessions often getting different quarries to catch my PSD prior to retiring last year. In addition I have attended the annual trials as well.

I will say it again, in my opinion todays schutzhund and for the most parts the GSDs I observe today would not compare to when schutzhund was a "true" test of the GSDs "working" abilities which is what the breed was originally bred for. I believe Mr Stephanitz made quite a few quotes on what he bred his breed for. One only has to look them up!


Just My Opinion.

Cutaway, let me see, until I had miniscus surgery the preceding Friday, I was working dogs in suit and sleeve every Tuesday night, notwithstanding still going to K9 training with depts. in region 15 of USPCA, helping them with reading dogs, strengthening bites, in suit, fire hose undersleeves, muzzles, etc. not sure if that is current enough to read today's dogs.....but I think I know what I am looking at from that end of leash. Btw, I still carry a sweikert sleeve with me to training, but seldom use it as I want to feel the dog as well as read the dog. Don't get me started on bitebar sleeves, another subject. In the seventies, I worked dogs with energy and athleticism, today I use experience and ability to read and catch dogs. Especially, passive bites, building bites, closet bites, bites in dark builders, which I think tells you far more about a dog than grass bites in straight line....hey ...but Father Time does catch up

Especially, passive bites, building bites, closet bites, bites in dark builders, which I think tells you far more about a dog than grass bites in straight line

i agree with you on this. I must really be missing something because i see a lot of dogs that meet your criteria of 'dogs of ole', or at least my interpretation of your picture you describe. Sure there are dogs that cant handle pressure, cant deal with hallway confrontations on a slippery floor, dont seem to want to hunt through the building and bath rooms. But it seems to be a good balance of dogs that are willing/wanting to hunt and engage, not because they are taught or forced to but have a desire to vs those that dont. Those that dont, well there are other venues for. Not all 'real world' GSDs are fighters they may be better suited for other jobs and sports (like Hund stated). I am reading you fall more into dogs that are suited for LE and Military, problem is they basically want free dogs, or dogs that are "..trained reliable..' in 6 short weeks and feel because they are in the suit of a GSD or Mali they should automatically be able to perform, i mean their not living creatures but machines right? And they want these machines for no $$$ and hence you get the shyte dogs that most LE have which is what i am seeing. And I know a lot of LE Offices who's dogs are a liability because they do not have balance, way to handler aggressive, dont bond well, but these dogs are just called DOMINANT by those who dont know or who have sold a dog they dont want back.

I am a firm believer that this sport still tests GSDs and their breeding suitability. I just whish the SV would have went the other direction and said that a female must have an IPO 2 before being breed surveyed. I get you saw training that was harsh but do you really think top guys like Vit Glisnik get their dogs to out or transport or obey with only a cookie or a ball on a string??? Do you really believe that Ivan (when he competed with a GSD) only used a NO command to change behavior? And lastly, since you were a suit/sleeve, do you really think most GSD's today have to be taught to bite vs teaching the rules of when to bite?

Most IPO trainers i know do way more than just play grab arse biting games in the grassy green field

 

I think your knowledge of what LE want or expect is so 1970s....haha.
First thing, most dogs working on the East Coast go through minimum 14 week school and in NJ it's 16 weeks for patrol, 14 weeks for scent school. Second, very few dogs are donated at all, and the starting rate for dogs is about 7500 dollars. This accesses some really nice recruits trust me.
Second, all training to certify is under the guidelines of state Attorney General office, which mandates length of training and scope of training. This includes all surfaces indoor and outdoor, slippery floors, grated floors, grilled floors, escalators, elevators, helicopter, training on large boats and ships, riding in boats on water, heights, rubble, large dark empty buildings, tracking on grass, dirt, cement, asphalt, bites in muzzles, suits, sleeves, hidden sleeves, in water, up high, in crawl spaces.
You would be astonished how often launching GS from off sport field only trained on grass Get washed out of academy because once they have to perform in many of these situations they wilt. Or, they may overcome the obstacle but they go down in drive so much they are no longer effective. You'd be surprised how many dogs are different when confronted with new place, new scenario, pitch black at night, etc. It is so easy to spot someone who really doesn't understand the training that LE depts go through on East/West coast. With the terror situation, the bar has increased even more in last twenty years. Yet, folks think of LE dogs as the type in Mayberry.....sure there are rural areas that may have six week training( I sincerely hope not) but that isn't close to reflection of training dogs go through these days.

Also, I have titled a dog in Sch in the early 80s and also titled one in 2005 with entirely different training methods. I have trained with or attended seminars with T- Floyd, Marty Segretto, Phil Hoehcler, Wallace Payne, Dean Calderon, Charley Karoly, and others....I don't know if that would give me any insights into the sport field but I think they know what they are doing. I do have more involvement in LE, but I value sport training for their strong points also.

Btw, Cutway, I'm not saying there aren't some good dogs in the sport world, before someone with ten minutes of training misconstrues what I am saying,( not you) BUT if you talk to vendors, brokers, or large LE depts, you will find that they don't look to the sport field for dogs like they did many years ago. Sure, some do make transition, without a doubt, but more today don't make it. And it's not the bitework, ( except for bitework on passive decoy, you'd be surprised when certain dogs have to bite without prey movement or a sleeve to prep them can't convert into serious work), it's the environmental issues that our breed has really gotten weak in.

the simple fact that the amount of pedigree GSD going to LE dropped enormously should tell you all, and secondly looking at the pedigrees of the ones that do would finish all doubt

there are allways exeptions, but both in pedigree malinois and GSD we see the same names/lines popping up that bring stronger, more suitable dogs and they are mostly not the well known ones