Watered Down sport?? - Page 10

if you know all you claim you know, you must know about the discussion(fight) that went on in the FCI working dog board some years ago, about the bark and hold and especially the awarding of points on the calling out,

you must also know it was a discussion between  GSD people who wanted a real bark and hold and would allow the dog a fraction of time to shift drives, and malinois people who wanted it to be a clean obedience exercise were no shift of drives would be needit, and the calling out would or should be immediately on command

 

 

joan, there was discussion about having a person putting it on the desired position, so the throwing wouldnot trigger the dog, thus changing it from a drive to a clean trained obedience exercise

so the dog doesnot need natural drive to apport

the dog doesnot need natural guarding to Guard

and the transport is a heel exercise with prey reward

Again, I have no problem with sport people, sportdogs and breeding the most suitable dog for sport, but than dont get upset when someone says things changed and for LE we need a little different type of dog

Thank you, duke.
That is all 'watering down' the breed for sure. I want natural, and will continue to evaluate my dogs for 'natural/genetic' ability....hunt, retreive , tracking, protection....screw the 'fake' h/b, fake tracking, fake protection, fake transport, etc...

BW - top!

No, Joanro, like BW explained it´s about "the same chance for everybody".

Duke, really, you know BH is neccessary nonsense to be allowed to participate in IPO ( german law ). BH became mandatory to show the world that the owners of GSDs ( working dogs / big sized dogs / "dangerous breeds" as a whole ) are able to handle their dogs. ..

No gun shots? Who cares? And why?
The BH in itself has nothing to do with the "real" breeding requirements...

Stick hits? SV voted FOR stick hits, as did DVG. Countries like Switzerland don´t have a choice, stick hits are forbidden by law in several countries, they are NOT ALLOWED to hit their dogs.

"points down for dog that acts not happy on trail (compulsion)" - you don´t like that? Really? We are not living in the early 20. century any more - smart people realized that it´s possible to train dogs while they have fun instead of being afraid of their handler or just being bored.

I am totally with you about some people using the "wrong" drives for single parts of IPO - like "bark and hold" should be about the guy in sleeves, not about a ball ).

But that´s about humans and their will to win, not about rules and routines in itself. Handlers are lying to themselves, breeders don´t want to see this problem...

The GSD originally was no "guarding, protection" breed, but a herding breed, able to guard and protect.
I wouldn´t like to loose those guarding an protecting abilities, too.

Back to topic: "Watered down dogsport?"

True in case of people concentrating on points only, no matter the intention of the dog -
wrong in case of people making use of the initial drives of the GSD breed.

Dog sport is still able to tell me everything I want to know about a dog ( be it good or bad ) -
but thanks to very advanced training skills it´s about the honesty of every single handler/breeder.
Is the handler training according to intial traits of the breed, or is the handler using "whatever helps" to get the title / more points?

Because of that I always want to see dogs I am interested in during training.

You can train your dog however you like...the judge has to stay objective. When judges were allowed to try to judge the "drive" the dog was in...you'd get unfair discrepancies in points. Want to train a "real" bark and hold...whatever that is...go for it. You won't lose any points as long as your dog barks and doesn't touch the helper.

The call out? I've never heard of anyone losing points for a dog that takes a few extra seconds at the helper. The position after the call out is the only thing I've seen dogs lose points for. Don't want your dog to come back to you as fast as possible the moment you say "here" train it that way, no one will care. It tells me nothing about your dog except for that you haven't trained a fast/quick/precise enough call out.

Back to the bark and hold...I'm going to assume that you're speaking about the human perception (with all your mighty expertise) of what drive the dog is in based on the tone of the bark and probably how many teeth you can count as the dog is barking. Do you not realize how much subjectivity you're giving the judge if you want them to score the dog based on those things? What if...the dog is handled by their good friend? Are you going to call the judge out for giving him more points than YOU believe that friend deserved based on the dog's tone? That seems like a fun time for all competing...

Teach your exercises however you want to teach them...nothing in the rules about how something has to be taught. If your dog holds the right position, does what is asked, no one is going to fault you with points and you'll pass the trial and get your title. I really don't get how any of that is "watering down the sport." All I can see is a bunch of people, not actively involved in the sport, making up reasons why they won't do it.

Also...what happened to the other 5/6 points you tried to make about watering down the sport? No rebuttal for those FACTS?

The head of USCA thinks IPO is being watered down. Now I know Jim doesn't know as much as 5-7 year people in the sport, because he's been around so long that he doesn't recognize how IPO is remaining the same. Most insecurity in dogs results in reactiveness one way or the other, the same holds for discussions like this. If folks think that IPO is still the same as in past, then it is.🤗

" If folks think that IPO is still the same as in past, then it is.🤗"

 

We are talking about changes to IPO on 3 threads currently how do you get people think its the same from that?

 

Whole post makes no sense.

Ready to have the dumbell inserted into the gape.....

You are right, vkgsd!😉

To other folks, the other part of my post that was omitted was that "president of USCA thinks IPO is watered down" which I think is very RELEVANT to topic above, and contrary to others who have  posted to the contrary. Selecting one sentence and omitting others that show relevance is sign of "integrity."