Preferred Model of Aggression and why? - Page 2

I was born in the early sixties, you were born?

The first "professional" brokers ( not for VA dogs, those dogs were sold via "SV rating" far earlier, but for "working dogs") came to our club in the early eighties, at first the Americans, a little later the Italians ( the Italians most often buying drug dogs/prey driven dogs during that time ). Because of those personal connections I was able to spend some time in the States "retraining" SchH dogs" for "civil" police work...

Either a difference in region or a difference in time frame, TODAY nobody cares

I was born in the 70's

Probably both. Region and Time Frame.

Susie, I agree with your view on societal change.

Well clearly if what Susie is saying was true all across GSDs in Germany (60s/70s), there already was a distinct difference in not only the way people were keeping GSDs in America, but how we were keeping MANY of them over here, 'next door' to Germany in the UK, also. Not forgetting that the SV let the specimens of the breed out of their country - and then did not try to insist that they be maintained in exactly the same way as the country of origin, so the UK afficianados never developed a full system of training clubs, never grew a culture of testing and trialling the dogs, ie ALL the dogs, never had more than a few 'mentors' ( who are almost all dead now, RIP Percy Elliott) who tried to insist on the importance of temperament, and testing of character. Instead we had a rush to produce Showdogs, and Pets, and Police Dogs (eventually) and Guard / Security Dogs; and most of the people doing that didn't really know what they were about, so could have used some guidance. Not entirely the SV's fault obviously, but they could have done a bit more than they did.

And that has to be looked at in the context of all OTHER breeds of dog, & how the public saw them, and wanted dog behaviour standards to be.

@Gustav and Koach : of course I am not saying ONLY in crowded situations, I only used that as a passing illustrative example (and anyway, 3 can be a 'crowd' !) - it wasn't meant to be a total argument or completed list of situations. Fact remains that you cannot really argue things "in society" are really so much worse, now as opposed to 'then', because these public attitudes have always been in evidence; if little cliques of working-dog people don't see it, and now experience  it as so much worse, and are quick to blame any other group for it, I suggest they have been living in their own little world, up until recent years.

It won't surprise any of you to learn that I don't feel this is so much about the attitudes, the wants & needs, of society at large (as I don't believe those have changed that much) but about breeders, and other concerned organisations and individuals, not keeping tight enough tabs on the GSD breed; but instead letting too many go to more and more people who really ought not to be owners of the breed at all, because they are not fit for it & don't have correct attitudes to it and its management.  But then, profit is obviously more relevant than asking awkward questions, or just saying No, or getting dogs back if the homes turn out to be bad decisions ...

Yes, it´s a shame. We / the humans as a whole, lost our roots, suppressed our instincts.
Not only dogs, but animals and plants as a whole, are an important part of our earth, but the "new generation" forgot, that they, too, are only "part" of the whole picture.

The worst part for me : "We" are guilty, "we" forgot to teach the next generation to respect nature, "we" removed from a balanced planet, "we" believed in science and entertainment "only".
We can´t even blame them.

On reflection about my last post, ^^^, just wanted to clarify - in case anybody including the OP is left in any doubt - among those 'bad for the breed owners', I include anyone who puts more emphasis on the ability to bite, and the 'quality' of that bite, over every OTHER aspect of the general purpose, all-round excellence and bidability of the GSD.

If you have a dog that cannot be trained to track properly, or shows its teeth at anyone and everyone except the person who feeds it, or decides it is 'top dog' in its household and does not respond correctly to basic obedience education (etc etc etc) ... that is not a good breedworthy specimen, even if it displays the best, most firm, deepest and most prolonged bite in the world when aimed at a sleeve ( or, gods forbid, a bare human ass). Anybody who thinks that both the ability and the intention to bite is the be-all and end-all (and it sometimes seems that quite a few people do, from posts here, even if when challenged they won't admit it) is just as wrong headed as the person who excessively hugs and kisses their 'fur baby' Shepherd and thereby insults its intelligence.(They never admit they are doing it wrong, either !).

All dogs can be trained to track, the emphasis on ability to bite is irrevelant as all dogs are capable of biting very hard.....it's about nerves, temperament and training....and if in correct proportions and capable hands the correct GS could and should be fine. Smh

The most consistent application of this working breed for the past 80 years is LE/military use. That is fact! There is still tens of thousands of them used in this capacity. The need today is greater than ever, whether folks like/acknowledge it or not.

If pet breeders/commercial breeders have their way, they will emasculate the breed from performing these tasks.....sure,sure, they will say they don't want to do this, but when you want to eliminate key components of the breed to acquiesce to popularity, you are inadvertently doing that. When you water down hardness, resiliency, fight, and working nerve, than eventually the breed will not be fit to meet its tasks.

some of us care about the breed, but some of us only want the breed to fit our lifestyle....popularity has been the bane of this breed, because with it comes a majority of people ( and unfortunately BREEDERS) who only care about making this breed suitable for everyone and everyplace to have one....and that is sad to me. 

And please I am not saying breed FOR LE dogs, there is difference in maintaining all aspects of the breed and breeding to fit society.

 

And I am not suggesting that you were saying it was better to breed FOR dogs capable of Law Enforcement work, Cliff. Nor was I counting you among those who I think do the breed such disservice by concentrating all their efforts on promoting more and 'better' biting (just in case you did think I meant to include you).  <SMH here, too!>

But I have known experienced handler/trainers who have had dogs that were great at tracking, but have also had the odd dog that simply wasn't.  Okay, 'all' dogs can be taught to track (perhaps), but can they ALL be taught to track well ? 'Properly' was the term I used ^^^, not just 'track'; and my contention is that they don't get taught to track (to whatever standard) by owners who don't bother seriously about that, and/or other, elements of the trialling work/sport - often to the extent that they will forgo IPO status, arguing that isn't necessary at all as a measure of the dog (but perhaps silently indicating that they would not be able to achieve a high enough score ?).

You said it all, when you wrote "...in correct proportions and capable hands..."  That is what I am saying we are short of,

and this is on BOTH sides of the Show/Work spectrum.

Hundmutter, you are moving the goalposts, now all dogs tracking WELL??
The point is because you know someone that abused, neglected, was a poor choice to own a German Shepherd or lives in city and is incapable for whatever reason to properly train or work their dog is not an excuse to turn the breed into Labrador temperament....and that is what many are advocating. I read posts carefully....the breed was created to have strong protection component, period! Because you live in a desert you aren't conscientious breeder because you are breeding Lab that does not thrive in water! That is really what some of you are really trying to do...are you one?....I can only judge by what you write, but I do know this thinking is pervasive in the breed to the point that the breed has lost capabilities. There are exceptions and examples for anything, but I speak of norms as opposed to exceptions and that should concern true stewards of the breed.

Yes Gustav, you are correct. The issue can be solved if breeders would just turn people away that aren't "capable" of owning a proper GSD. But as it stands, they'd rather count their money rather than hold true to the standard and therefore are breeding the dogs for the market instead of just trying to keep the dogs as they should be.