Just another Sport Dog - Page 33

Also, my last post WAS NOT putting down IPO dogs, they are great dogs, but it echoes Duke's observation that IPO today and LE today are different worlds; for many of the reasons we mentioned. And trust me in many cases, it's not a matter of training( though it could be), we look for and emphasize different goals that require differences in the dog. Doesn't mean one is good and the other is bad, but it does mean that if you breed exclusively for one, you start losing important traits for the other.
I hope that makes sense!

And yet iPO Dogs are the ones that continue to produce Police Dogs, SAR dogs, Service Dogs and also go into KNPV breeding. Because German Shepherds are IPO dogs.

There are still plenty of good dogs out there.

I agree BE, and they produce great show dogs and pet dogs and almost anything you want. Folks that participate in all those venues know where to go to get what will work in their field.

BE the thing that is troubeling is that the amount of policedogs produced by IPO dogs is decreasing rapidly

today an ipo dog is tracking on food, apport on visual, these things are not used in LE detection

KNPV style obedience is far more "real world " than IPO

bitework, no need to go there again

IPO is static program(KNPV also ) LE dogs need to adapt to new situations every day

environmental(nerves) cannot be compared from one to another

not saying there are no good dogs in IPO, suitable for LE, but less and less

I've been reading these posts. Such a ridiculous dialogue.
I am begining to realize that very few people will grasp what is the makeup that it takes to be a LE canine unlwess you have actually undertaken the task to interact and own one. On paper .. they think they know.. but in reality they do not ! It's like comparing a private rank soldier in the military and thinking that he/she has what it takes to be US NAVY SEAL .. like taking martial arts classes and doing class bouting , which are geared in to be sport-like , and that you think it is exactly the same as fighting real life death matches.

Listen....... IPO is laughable.. nothing.. absolutely nothing in that sport that challenges the dog , no where a real life scenario. And I am not knocking IPO /Sch , they are fantastic sports.. but that what it is a SPORT. Same, step for step , exercise for exercise. Goodness gracious , the dog does not even have to think to pefrom . Even the foolish sleeve is presented to the dog , for crying out loud . The target is right under it's nose, sort to speak  ... You could blindfold the dog and it would still be able to perform.

You cannot make a dog a police canine.I am not talking about teaching.. I am talking about what in essence the dog is . Forget the diluted expression genetics .. The dog has to have .. and I mean this in the deepest way of stating this .. the dog MUST have , the Innate [ do you folks underdstand that word] Predispostions Genetically . As years go by less do and most IPO/Sch dogs do not .. that simple. To the general reader and age group not at that level ... that means the behaviors and capabilities are pre-wired genetically , like a computer with ALL the necessary capabilities ,stress level , hardness , muscle /structure , correct type and quality of aggression , sociability / suspision level balanced, etc , etc . Many factors Pre-Wired , meaning neurologically into it's central nervous sytem like the color of it's eyes to handle any and all contexts / stituations that it is called upon. It's Automatic [ nervous system based capabalilites] in nature .

     A soldier can be very capable for combat .. but no way near having capability to handle the program that makes him/her a Navy Seal !   IPO , for goodness sake's , the dog doesn't even have to defend itself let alone a person ... It can look like a soldier but it is no way a navy seal , to draw an analogy.

For those that want to be further argumentative, try testing IPO /Sch canines in what a Police or Military canine would have to do .. then come back to the thread and talk to the rest of us that have had LE dogs, or trained LE dogs , or have dogs even in other endeavors/sports that are 'real life' refections [ or military].

 

Very good post Centaurian one of the best poster on this forum by far IMO, also Duke make some good points

IPO/KNPV most of them is a routine training program

LE/ Militatry you will never know what is coming but the dog have to fix the job most of time you need very strong natural genetics not weak courage or nerves.

With not so good genetics I can also succeed in IPO also in KNPV because most of exercises are trainable. Have seen PH-1 dogs who are not good enough for street work, But also have seen dogs who are too much for the sport because of their hard charactar, too much temper and drives not so good for points but are exellent for LE/ Street work

 
 

 

Maybe this will help.....Many on here believe and advocate that in order to be credible breeder in their eyes you have to title your dogs. You know who you are because the archives would show numerous posts by you taking this position. When asked why, the rationale is that without titling setting some kind of standard and or training how do you know the dogs are breedworthy, or anyone else know. That generations of untitled dogs lessens the odds of the dogs being breedworthy.
Well that EXACT same principle/rationale applies here. IPO dogs are primarily trained same place, same way, same environment. Very few IPO folks do muzzle work, suit work, man work, environmental training, and subject their dogs to strong " unexpected pushback " from decoy or agitator. Tracking the same way, actually the sport is so stylistic that most IPO folks won't entertain training that in any way may hinder the points on the field. No suit, might affect grips, no lifting of head on track, it might lose points, very little night training, no training on irregular surfaces, no bitework unless they approve of helper who will give perfect presentation....NOW I'm not saying this is bad for sport, but this kind of training does not adequately prepare a dog for LE work, and selected breeding for dogs that aren't tested in these areas is no different than selected breeding for dogs that aren't titled. Most breeders of untitled stock probably isn't breeding dogs with high work ability, most IPO show breeders aren't breeding dogs that can do well in IPO, and most IPO breeders aren't breeding dogs that cam make transition to LE dogs. There are exceptions in all the cases, but for the same principle( breeding stock that isn't prepared for the other venue) it is not the norm. The reasoning is the same as breeding untitled dogs, unless you are exception how do you know the dogs are breedworthy, unless you are the exception how do you know that IPO breeder is producing LE dogs with the vast areas that IPO dogs are tested in that is necessary for LE work.

Today, in all these cases the transition from one venue to another is more exception than training.

...und taeglich gruesst das Murmeltier....

Good thing one person is getting me ;)