Just another Sport Dog - Page 13

We can also add "how to try to win an online argument when you've run out of facts" to the title of this thread as well. Could write a book based on what you resort to.

Step 1: Go to personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
Step 2: Call someone a troll.
Step 3: Run away crying about how you're going to go train your dogs now.

FYI…I’d post videos of my dog at this point, but you’d all find ways to see whatever you want to see and say whatever you want to say. You’ve proven it with your commentary on the videos posted in this thread. For example…a dog biting a hidden sleeve with a helper sitting in a chair was called “prey” because the helper presented an arm for a bite with a backwards motion which signified prey…in the same breath a dog was presented doing a bite with a decoy running away and that was called civil. Hmmmm….

Another dog was back tied to a tree and clearly made backwards movements and also nervously sniffed a bottle which was thrown at him instead of focusing on the real threat, no one made any mention of that, yet they made mention of how the dog is powerful and stood his ground (he had no choice due to the back tie) and how amazing it is that he bit the helper. Also want to add to this...the back tie is to protect the helper? HE'S WEARING A SUIT...what other protection does the helper need? If he needs a back tie to protect himself...maybe he should choose a different hobby? Again...just another statement to make the dog sound greater than it is. And not saying the dog is bad, the dog is good...but the statements about the dog and that scenario...wow.

Another dog was clearly defensively barking out in the open field with zero threat being presented. A helper was working suspicion behind a blind and it was presented to this forum as the helper “playing rabbit” and working the dog in prey. Huh? What? Helper then picked up a sleeve for a dog that clearly wasn’t ready for one and ran by trying to give a weak prey bite and the dog barely took the sleeve. Dog was so far in defense it couldn’t even go into prey in order to make the bite. The theory of channeling the defense into a prey drive was correct…in practice it failed miserably. Truthfully, I feel bad for that dog as it was subjected to bad training when it wasn’t ready for what was happening. Can’t make a judgment on that actual dog because it was pushed to do something that it was not ready for. For those that will cry and claim I'm saying something negative about the dog...no, the dog isn't bad...the dog was just presented with a training situation it wasn't ready for, I'm going to assume that the age of the dog led the helper/handler to believe the dog was further along than it actually was. Clearly not one of those dogs that hasn't been worked ever and comes out as a monster, nothing wrong with that, most dogs are like that...but this dog was presented a challenge it couldn't meet.

Duke - you are right, the dog did not know what was expected as this was the first time he had been presented with this scenario. This was a test to see what he would do, and where he was in his mental development with regard to the work. Since that firist vid he has been worked maybe 6 times, the last time was posted on another thread and was last year whe he was 3 yrs old.    

To me a good trainer looks at video and assess what they see,( relative to their experiences), an excellent trainer can look at video an assess what dog can be. When I hear comments on videos, I listen carefully!

Personally, I answer the question. The question was "What do you see in this video". The dog at that very moment was in straight up defense and shouldn't have worked the way he was.
That doesn't mean the dog is a bad dog. That was in that very moment. The same goes for Joanros dog. The fact that he was impacted by the bottle twice. Not just once but twice tells me he's either environmentally sensitive or simply wasn't ready for that much pressure. He also showed backward movement, he didn't go forward. He didn't feel comfortable, he was pulling away from the helper when he bitt the jacket from what I could tell. Same was in Koots video. The first bite on the long tug said everything you needed to know at that moment to stop right there and then and work him in prey. This was a quiet and open field. At his age, how many times he has been there shouldn't even matter, what matters is how he was worked.

As for what the dog could be, both dogs looked like they could be so much more if they were worked the right way at THAT Moment. I don't know what they look like now because I haven't seen the dog myself. I can't make predictions of something I don't know. They could be nice dogs. Both dogs show the potential to be nice dogs.. But that was not the question. Now Koot's video is not a current video. It's about two years old now? So I have no idea what the dog looks like currently. It would be interesting to see a current video. As for judgement of the dog and what they could be. A one minute video is not enough for me. I would want to see more. I would want to see the dog.

“See what the dog can be” is exactly why this country is where it is when it comes to working dogs…and exactly what started this thread. People watch training videos and assume the dog can be better with better/more training, it’s then bred based on assumed potential rather than proving what it can do. 30 second video of half assed barking and a weak grip...easy IPO1. “Dog has a half grip on a soft sleeve? Well if things keep going positively eventually the dog can have a full grip on a hard sleeve, might happen tomorrow, might happen 6 years from now, but hey, I can see the dog has potential so let’s breed the thing.” Dogs that go out there and prove what they can do, get ripped apart and torn to shreds no matter what their level or score because they’ve actually gone out there and done it. “Dog took the helper down at the worlds and ran back to it’s owner with a slipped sleeve? What a piece of shit, I’d never want anything out of that dog.”

Every video needs to be captioned with “first time on ______” and then all the dogs have a ton of potential and are amazing. Dog is titled in IPO (or any sport not approved by the EXPERTS on this forum)? It’s just a sport dog and a POS. Check out this 30 second video of a dog biting a helper after it’s been agitated for 20 seconds and the helper turns around and runs away…it’s so amazing. Oh your dog barks at a helper in a blind? Garbage just like all the other sport dogs out there. Anything else I missed?

Barenf, you couldn't be less accurate in your assessment of my dog Removed the rest of the comment as it was totally unwarranted. mrdarcy

 

No, I've actually seen that from the very beginning. I see this every week. This has absolutely nothing to do with BW.
I also said that the other dog was insecure and defensive before BW made his comment, I just didn't see your video because I spent all night at the Hospital and then slept for most of the morning. You know... being disabled and very sick and all... so I'm very sorry that I couldn't answer before BW did but even if I did, you'd still call it wrong.

This is why I don't bother posting on this site. nasty ...downright nasty commentairies instead of friendly discussion !

EB and Joan pertaining to the first two videos posted .... you both have very nice dogs... they are different but nice !!

Gustav and Duke... naturally well experiencer and ... yes they can see the potential- they know how to understand dogs ... . My first thought ... of course .... each dog with the right training ..,a shoe in for IPO .... but you have to know what you are doing.

I state this because , both the left and the right exist at the same time : Can 1 quick 20 second clip of a dog be enough to make certain reliable acessments and conclusions . the right answer is yes and no ...... depends . Many time there is not enough infromation but at other times someone only need to see the dog for 10 seconds and have the infromation they need to see the potoential and make up of a canine.

For example i the first video : you see the dog, EB's do a bite and gaurd . He bites ... the dog bites !! He was outed and was called back to heel. So... this exercise is thought of as protection bite work exercise .. it is bite work .... but not entirely !!!!!. All protection work is in essence Obedience** !

So haven seen , what I have seen , in that 20 seconds.. What would make one think that the dog would have ANY problem in IPO obedeince ? Why owuld a dog outing , an obedience exercie , not be able to do IPO obedience ? If it were then IMOp that would be the training and nothing to do with the dog itself. I would say : you mean to tell me that you can send a dog to bite , to out , to come to heel , and with an automaitc sit as it is required at the begining of an exercise... and one couldn't do simple OB exercises with this dog ? you would have to be kidding me !! And tracking... if you want to understand a dog , then you have to unerstand it is 99% nose !! All this dog would need is a reason to track !! Nice dog E... YES IPO 3 is written on this dog's chest !

Joan , Yes this dog bites - I see potential , I lean to thinking this dog could very easily get IPO [ bite work very very possible] , a strong impression ... I would like maybe a little bit more of the dog working on the clip. I only see the bite . However I also feel , my impression , that there should be , [again qualified ], should be if this is a sound dog, no reason that this dog could not pass tracking and Obedience. . so I don't commit muself to say without seeing any behavioral indications that this dog would do obedience . Not seeing OB behavioral tendencies ... In that sense , not matter of agreeing with or , or not agreeing with BV .. I cut him/her a little slackin committing tom a definitive conclusion because I can see where his/her thoughts might be .

Often I see on this site very very prejudiced people . Thinking IPO is such a most difficult thing to accomplish with a talented dog ... With an experienced handler /trainer and dog .. it is not. [ I know the Sch people and IPO people will give me heel for this, but it isn't] . As I once wrote ... there is nothing in the OB routine that a dog does not normally do on it's own accord. There is nothing in OB that I have taught in basic obedience classes [ except retireve] that these dogs could not do IMOp . All that is added is more exactitude- that's all folks .. just more precision and rules. . No doubt these two dog can and will bite .


Yes , we should not rely on a quick clip to size up a dog , in general, but sometimes that is all one needs. Like my mentor once told and taught me : you have 10 seconds to temperamnet test a dog , or else , you will get bit !!

Heavens people get so gosh darn nasty ... chill out folks... we all are onthis site because we have a common interest. To better ourselves and our dogs :-} Many times there are different dimensions to the same topic.

PS -Joan I don't know who is doing bite work with the dog..andI am not writing this as a critism . But IMOp, with honesty , not opinion but fact, there is a better way to work this specific dog in the bbite work if you were interested in the IPO.

Geez Joan make personal yr attacks.