Is titling / breed surveying a GSD really useless? - Page 8

BW, you are so expert at selling puppies, one is inclined to think it is your sole source of income. Explains why you are so possessive of this territory.

Inventing comments I supposedly made about my videos and dog sport is called fabrication...leads me to believe all your posts are fabrication.

Joan, I asked you.

I know I am stuck in SV rules ( grew up with it, no alternative for me ), but I honestly try to understand the people in the US. I try to understand the difficulties they have to deal with ( no clubs, no helpers ), but to the same time I ask myself " Why the fuck do you want to own a working dog when you are not able to work it ? "
Doesn´t make sense to me. When I decide to own a working dog I´ll work it, when I decide to own a hunt dog, I´ll hunt with it, and when I decide to own a sled dog, I´ll race with it. In case I am in search of a cuddly pet dog, I´ll buy a cute pet dog...
In my country you very seldom see GSD as "pets only" - people know that these dogs need something to do, and although after the Golden the GSD is the most bred and sold dog over here you almost never see them in town, you will see them in the woods, in the clubs, in the fields - at home either in a kennel or now in the house.
It´s the only breed that still has to proof its working ability and we are very proud of that. We lost the Dobermann, the Boxer, the Schnauzer, the Hovawart, the Rottweiler, as "real" working dogs already, we had to realize that as soon as there are no breeding requirements in case of working ability the breed is lost. And I am really afraid the GSD will follow soon, not only in the US, but here, too.

I follow the US imports for 30 years now - 1000s of really good dogs came into your country, the whole diversity of the German ( later on West/East European ) genepool, but your country still needs to import dogs on a regular basis, all those genetics are lost generation for generation, it´s like "New Year / back to zero again".
Most of the people that imported their first GSD 30 years ago still didn´t title one dog on their own, they either send their dogs away for training or they quit to breed according to the German rules and by now breed pets looking like GSDs.
The US doesn´t need to follow German rules, but after all those decades people in your country should know that there is no chance to breed working dogs without selection, but instead of doing better, your kennel club decided to do nothing.
There is no selection in your country, neither dog owners nor breeders are willing to acknowledge the difference between a pet dog and a GSD, you even will get pedigrees for a homebred puppy out of parents with missing testicles and /or teeth, floppy ears, HD, ED, hiding behind the next tree, afraid of their own shadow, and this puppy will be sold for a lot of money as "working dog" - and the average buyer will believe it.

I really think you know what you do, but some single individuals are not able to change the whole direction of a breed, sad, but true.

Geez you're thick. If I wanted to use this forum to sell puppies...I wouldn't stay anonymous. You know...the one thing that you clearly can't stand at this point about me. The fact that you can't dig up a bunch of crap and go all personal because you actually have zero idea of what I do or who I am. I know it pains you that you can't do the regular forum thing and go ridiculously personal to try to attack me rather than discuss dogs and breeding as this forum is meant to do.

I also have stated my opinion on the general state of breeding in the United States. I don't know why you take it so personally...but it's probably because it's not the first time you've seen those claims and at some point someone actually made them about you (which I have not). If you believe you're the 1% that's not the people I described...good for you...but the way you're taking my general theory personally...I think you believe you're actually the 99%...and statistically speaking you're more than likely in the majority and not in the minority.

Susie, I agree with every thing you said. And I do my best to encourage people new to the breed to get involved with a training club...doesn't have to be IPO, but someplace where they can learn and progress with their pup.

There is a mistake in Susie's thinking as to what decides the criteria for pet owners as to their choice of dog breed in the USA. Maybe elsewhere besides Germany, too. It is presumptuous thinking that a pet is only wanted for one thing: cuddling. For example, I love GSD's as a pet for many reason's, and their smarts is at the top of my list.

I think a breeder of merit should be the caretaker of the standard. The titles and show ratings are the yardsticks to measure themselves against their peers, meaning other breeders, since those are the same for everybody. Only some breeders will have other accomplishments that endow them with the gravitas that others will respect instead of titles and breed surveys.

All buyers should always be wary of claims of breeders that are unknown to them.

I'm missing something here, I think I read that Joan trains dogs, she titles dogs, she's bred dogs, I had a dog out of her stud that was titled by her and I raised the dog trained it until 2 years, and dog is currently working the streets of NJ,( which btw, has one of the toughest LE certifications in United States.), and she OFA certifies all her breeding stock.....I don't know what % of breeders this puts her in, I don't know what different type of training she has to do, I don't know what kind of working results her progeny need, for her to have to be considered excellent breeder.
Susie, there is a lot more training that takes place in this country, than IPO training. That is not to disparage IPO, trust me!, but I've titled dogs and shown my dogs under Schweikert, Arnie Humbolt, Willie Scheld, , would that allow me to be good breeder when I was breeding.( I don't necessarily attribute my knowledge of dogs to this alone, but it helped some).  Truthfully, I know a lot of very good trainers, that no longer feel that IPO is strong enough for their tastes. SDA and PSA has grown in States and isn't comprised of non training Yahoo!'s, there are very competent trainers, handlers in these venues that don't feel that high level IPO is the training direction they want to go. There are also many others training in groups around the country, that again don't see IPO as some on here do, but nevertheless train consistently. Not because qualifying for a Nationals is beyond their means, but rather they don't value the patterned routine of IPO as much as the training they engage in. Yet, they are very skilled trainers and the dogs are very accomplished.
I think for the novice, IPO is still a wonderful sport for learning, imprinting, viewing other dogs, and preparing a person who wants to get serious in dog training and/or breeding....but in America it's is not the only game in town trainingwise except to some.
I equate IPO in America to soccer, in your world it is the gold standard for sports, here in states it's increasing in popularity everyday, but athletes in this country are not judged by or largely inspired by World Cup standards, rather folks here value basketball, and football much more so in evaluating athletes, though we acknowledge the skill and stamina of soccer.....no it's not that we CANT do soccer, it's rather our better athletes have no interest in it.
Again, I'm NOT, disparaging IPO, but don't think because many don't engage, they aren't training their dogs....there are many that are.

There's another thing that happens each time IPO is brought up...no matter what people say, "just title your dog." The automatic response is...not everyone wants to go to nationals. NO ONE SAID GO TO NATIONALS OR DO HIGH LEVEL IPO. Just do SOMETHING.

"My" soccer team won against Munich tonight, they are in the German cup final now..........!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gustav, I really don´t care what kind of training people like, in case I´d be a Belgian, I´d do ringsport, maybe as a Dutch KNPV. It doesn´t matter. The goal is the same. IPO is the most international sport, but otherwise?

WHAT really matters is that the overwhelming majority of GSD owners and breeders in your country never walked on any training field ( be it a club, be it a training group ). As long as people don´t become involved the cheating ( and the breeding of dogs that are not breedworthy according to any working dog breed standard ) will never end.

PSA, KNPV, FR.......are actually titles and sports!!!!!!

Which is the point in the OP versus no titles.

So if someone is titling in PSA, KNPV, IPO... etc with their breeding stock they value titles...no doubt this is where all the quality dogs without titles come from, now, in the past and in the future.

Again nobody has demonstrated anyone that has used generations of their own untitled stock to produce and consistently supply quality working gsd.

Please show an example if you can, I would appreciate it.

I think this might be an acceptable example, they have been doing this for a while:  

https://fidelco.org/who-we-are---the-fidelco-german-shepherd