Is titling / breed surveying a GSD really useless? - Page 23

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by joanro on 29 April 2017 - 14:04

Swarme: '...BYBs are having a field day.'

And that disturbs you? Why, because they are cutting in on your consumers?
There are still some good dogs being produced by people you label byb, and there are some real crappers being produced by your esteemed breeders who follow regulations.

by Mackenzie on 29 April 2017 - 14:04

Swarnendo and Joanne - If you are both intent on having a fight then please take it to PM,s or anywhere else. It is off thread and not interesting to more serious readers. I would remind everyone everyone that this forum is a German Shepherds Forum and has already moved off thread several times.

Over to you Admin.

Mackenzie

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 29 April 2017 - 14:04

It's actually pretty interesting.

BYB won't cut in on consumers. Those people that buy from BYB's are not willing to spend the money for a well bred Shepherd. They don't see the reason why they should pay over a 1000 dollars for a dog. So no, they will not cut in on anything.

by joanro on 29 April 2017 - 15:04

Barenfanhg: 'BYB won't cut in on customers. Those people that buy from BYB's are not willing to spend the money for a well bred Shepherd.'

Bf, I was specifically asking swarme why he despises byb, and you would be assuming he producing 'well bred shepherds'. So far, I have seen no evidence by him that he even knows what a 'well bred gsd ' is.

Mac, that's all you have to say after I went to the trouble to post pics for you and clearify your error in your statement per my dogs standing to be hooked into the gangline? (I will add, in a strange place more than a 1000 miles from home in front of an audience of thousands).

As for arguing...swarme has made comments and made disparraging remarks aimed at me and breeders in general about titling and training ( on topic). I asked him and two others on here how many dogs they've trained and then titled that would justify them such superiority over others.

So far, there have been zero responses verifying they have ever titled a dog ( on topic).

My question as to why, without titles in every generation in the ped, the gsd as a breed is evidently ( according to these same folks) incapable of retaining any ability to be trained for work the breed is supposed to be able to do. I gave example of other breeds that can still perform the tasks their breeds were developed for, many generations without having ever performed those

tasks. There are many, many other breeds that can still do what they were bred for generations of not being involved...so why can't the gsd? Maybe you know the answer, mac.


by Mackenzie on 29 April 2017 - 16:04

Joanne - I have seen the pictures of your dogs. Clearly they work very well as a team and I commend you for this.

The difference with the GSD is that our breed is trained and expected to work alone with the handler on and off of any form of physical restraint whilst sometimes multitasking. I am sure that the Readers along with myself would be interested in reading how your training methods could be used for the benefit of our breed. Whilst I am old I am not too old to learn but I am thinking more of the Newbies here who may be able to improve their training knowledge.

Mackenzie

by joanro on 29 April 2017 - 16:04

The purpose was not to compare gsd and husky, it was to show that other breeds can still work breed specific jobs, including my xbred huskies.
Working individually with the handler...yes of course. To give some insight to training a 'team' of dogs...I trained each dog as an individual, one on one. They are each individually listening and responding to MY commands, not each others actions. Other wise there would be anarchy, fighting for power and I could end up smashed over the side of the ridge off the trail if the team followed whoever desires to ignore my command to 'leave it! Go ahead!' when a herd of deer jump out under their noses on the trail. Or wind up under the belly of a horse and rider who are waiting in the wings as we mush to the arena gate. So every dog is obeying my commands as individuals, compound that by six and you can see the complexity...the team work requires complete control by me with each dog following my commands.
Training one gsd is not compounded by having to work in harmony with five other very strong males.

Being hooked to the gangline is not restrained. How else can the dogs transfer their power to the vehicle being pulled? They cant push. Six dogs pulling together is a force to be reconed with, disasterous if they are out of control.
Heck, even the honor during obedience allows for huge space between dogs and the handler is to stand next to his dog while the other dog runs down field away from their respective handler...to prevent screw ups by the dogs' disobeying. So training a team of six is six times more difficult and complicated than training one...


by Mackenzie on 29 April 2017 - 17:04

Joanne - Thanks for giving us a small insight into the training of your dogs and, how you train each dog individually before introducing them to the rest of the team. It must take up a lot of time to complete the team line up. I can understand how the whole team move ahead as one but when you use, say the leave command, how does the team know who you are shouting at? I can also understand the risks of accidents as you describe.

When you say “Training one GSD is not compounded by having to work in harmony with five other very strong males” is not absolutely right. Sometimes the dogs work in teams off lead (unlike dogs in harness where there is some measure of control). As an example search and rescue teams sometimes have a number of dogs on site depending on the search criteria. Some shepherds in Germany will have to work two dogs off lead when driving a flock along a section of road with traffic and people in close attendance, or, if a flock is big enough in a large area of field with no fences. Border collies also work in pairs or more when gathering the sheep off of the fells. All of which are off lead. This leads me to believe the difficulties are not so great when each dog begins by being properly trained before being introduced to a team however small or large that may be. Also, the GSD must understand many more commands to get a working title as the qualifications depend on many more integrated commands and disciplines.

In short the training of a GSD is far removed from that of your working huskies and in particular the biting exercise where control and response to commands is imperative, Chalk and cheese.

Mackenzie

by joanro on 29 April 2017 - 17:04

A 'team of search and rescue dogs' are not working for one common handler...each dog has its owner personal handler. And there is no danger of a rougue 'team member' taking their handler, along with the entire team and handlers over the side of a mountain to crash at the bottom. ( Talk about control and response to commands being imperative !)

Mac, again I say; my intention was not to compare the training of gsd and huskies. It was to illustrate that there are breeds ( my xhuskies, example) that have not performed their breed specific jobs for 75 yrs at least, yet they can still be trained to be proficient. Even the Smooth Fox terrier,  I demonstrated how, after a full pedigree of Champion show dogs absent any terrier 'work' at all, can still be proficient at the work they were bred for. Conversely, supposedly the gsd MUST be titled and breed surveyed each and every generation or the breed will not be able to be trained for their work. 

   I dont know why you cant grasp that premise. Can you answer


by Mackenzie on 29 April 2017 - 18:04

The bigger problem for SAR dogs is working in buildings following earthquakes and similar high risk situations. If a building or tunnel is unsafe for example the handler may be some distance from his dog even out of sight.

It is time to bring this thread back to the posters original theme and get away from unrelated themes.

Mackenzie


by joanro on 30 April 2017 - 12:04

On topic.... excerpt from my last post: 'Mac, again I say; my intention was not to compare the

training of gsd and huskies. It was to illustrate that there are breeds ( my xhuskies, example) that

have not performed their breed specific jobs for 75 yrs at least, yet they can still be trained to be

proficient. Even the Smooth Fox terrier,  I demonstrated how, after a full pedigree of Champion

show dogs absent any terrier 'work' at all, can still be proficient at the work they were bred for.

**Conversely, supposedly the gsd MUST be titled and breed surveyed** each and every 

generation*** or the breed will not be able to be trained for their work.' **

  ' I dont know why you cant grasp that premise. Can you answer'

Any of the three experts, espousing the virtues of titling gsd but have not given evidence that they have done what they insist others do, would be interesting to see their view on this.






 


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