Is titling / breed surveying a GSD really useless? - Page 18

^^ The above post really makes sense....

So if we hadn't resort to generations of selective breeding of Show dogs , LE/PP dogs, Sports dogs etc to divide the breed into so many sub-breeds, all GSDs of today would have that border patrol type herding instinct, with some predatory instinct, some protection instinct and lots of intelligence. The versatile breed.

But, how is breed surveying responsible for that loss? Isn't it to ensure that all those instincts, at least to the bare average, is present in all breedworthy dogs?

My point was taking dogs with generations removed from dogs 'used' in their breed specific jobs, like out of the blue...and have the dog be more than capable, actually proficient, at the job they were bred to do.

And of course I've heard of 'herding instinct' test. I'm talking about taking a dog with no training and set it loose on a herd of sheep in a big field ( not a tight enclosure of a pen) That's not how 'herding instinct' is tested. But as I said, their is almost no need for actual herding dogs in the USA nowadays. So a dog with herding 'instinct' is not going to be of much service in today's world. Seems to me, the gsd is useful in real world, contemporary jobs instead of herding. So not a lot of value to herd sheep if you live in Trenton, NJ.

UNLESS. there is a need for crowd control. Then, herding instinct is valuable for the job.

So again, this is drawing on 'race memory' when a dog can be proficient at crowd control if he does not come from a long line of herding titled dogs.

Lol...wait...is the assumption being made that guarding a border from intruders is the based in the genetic predisposition to holding a flock within a pasture? Is that what just happened?!? Oh and crowd control? Herding instinct? Yeah, we just don't need to train dogs at all anymore, they're just born doing these things. I mean, I've read some things before...but that takes the cake.

There is substantial and growing demand for herding dogs in the US, same as the rest of the developed world that has food/fibre animal production.

Guys in my are sending dogs and trainers to the US, euro, south america and south Africa.

Lack of demand for herding dogs is BS promoted by lazy German Shepherd breeders.

Agreed, there is actually an entire Herding Culture in the US. I took a Genetics Class and how Genetics influence behavior in dogs and specifically herdings dogs were used as an example for a genetic footprint. So were Hunting Dogs, but primarily the herding dogs were a fantastic example how genetics work.

Well let's not forget the most used police dogs ie; the gsd, dutch shepherd, mal, and arguably the Rottweiler are herding dogs...coincidence?

Berenf, to try to get my point across, pick up an asl gsd, or a GSL gsd, dogs that have zero titles and have never worked in any form of herding ( since that is your focus) and do as I did with my Smooth Fox terriers at the go to ground trial. Mine were dogs with no terrier work for decades of generations. Yet they went into the tunnels, following the rat trail and 'worked' the rat in the box at the end of the tunnel. No practice, no training for it. And they were proficient.
So take your untrained, untested zero work titles for generations and put them in a herding 'trial', not a 'herding instinct'. That would be a big bust with no training.
I'm not suggesting the gsd can automatically herd, with no training, that is not my point. But do you believe you could train those gsd with zero herding titles, and zero herding work, for dozens of generations to herd?

As for herding dogs being needed in the lower 48...the choice is BC, not gsd. So Mr Australia, how many of your gsd breeders are bringing their progeny here to work on sheep farms? I have friends in Illinois who used to breed, train, compete on national level, sell herding dogs...they won't touch a gsd to work on the sheep farms, it's BC only. They quit doing commercially about ten yrs ago because of lack of demand.

Berenf: Genetics influence behavior in dogs and specifically herdings dogs

Crowd control, for example...not much different than a dog holding rank goats back from escaping out an open gate.

I never said my colleagues export gsd as herding dogs, they are not stupid. You precisely add to my point about lazy gsd breeders.

The gsd is being bred in greater numbers than ever before.
The gsd is a herding dog
The worldwide demand for herding dogs is increasing like never before.
Pretty much nobody uses the gsd for herding.

See the problem?

The only problem I see, is your lack of understanding of the gs breed, making your premise illogical.

Read the "The Germanshepherd Dog" by Stephanitz and you may learn why the gsd has not been bred for the purpose of 'herding' for decades ( if you're not too lazy to read a book). But the herding instinct is the foundation for other work the gsd is being selected/bred/used for.
This was a question about gsd supposedly not being able to be trained for work unless the dog comes from all titled parents for generations.
You are making the point that, because of selection for herding in a country where there is a huge demand for them, herding bc is common as dirt. For herding work in the usa, it's the bc. For protecting their family in a city, it's the gsd, not the bc. Get the difference?