WGWL - Page 10

Prager, I'm not sure if you do it knowingly or unknowingly...but you try to make excellent points but you fail because you use all encompassing words. You seem to lack the ability to just accept that the few people you might've watched aren't "ALL" the people in the sport. I know its easier to make a point to people that aren't involved by being extreme...but when you're talking to people that do know what's going on and are much more traveled than you in regards to current dog training, you sound like a small-minded extremist that can't just accept that other people do things different ways.

BW Please do not tell me what I know and do. I am foremost expert on what I know and do;) . And  you obviously do not have any idea so stop looking like fool evaluating my knowledge of the state of affair in sport and protection training. Only people who are losing their argument resort to personal attacks. I think that you have problem to comprehend what I am saying. I am not disputing that there are some people who may train their sport dogs in defense. Just recently I have talked to German GSD judge who promoted such training. And that is f-ing wonderful !!!!! In any case I would like to see such training on a video. it probably is just putting pressure on a dog in prey. But ,... Can you provide some? I seriously doubt.
The point I am making and you just do not get is that no sport I am aware of does promote defense in their competition. Can you understand that??! What people do in their back yard is irrelevant. I still would like to see the video of someone training identifiable famous sport dog while  in defense drive .

BW:Prager, I'm not sure if you do it knowingly or unknowingly...but you try to make excellent points but you fail because you use all encompassing words.

Hans: Can you give me an example?

What I am getting from the back-and-forth thus far, is that Prager and Duke are more oriented towards training dogs for LE and/or PPD, which has a whole different orientation than training for sport (whether IPO or PSA is immaterial) and points.

BavWagon on the other hand, is an IPO person, and primarily associates good dogs as ones who can do well on a sport-field, and win high points. I mentioned a while back on this forum that I myself encountered the personal dog (multiple IPO3) of a national level competitor......a dog who puts on a thrilling show on a sport-field, with some really impressive prey-driven "fight" with "unflappable nerves" etc.,.........but lies around like a dummy when a stranger walks into his owner's yard. A pure Golden in scary GSD clothing ! A pure showman, with nothing beyond the show. I personally hold no interest towards such dogs.

I have a couple of (primarily) prey driven GSDs at home, and another GSD that is (primarily) defense/hunt driven. If I am in a pinch, and my life is on the line, it will be the defense boy that I will rely on.......he has unhesitatingly engaged (not in a training scenario, but for real) more than once, and to me, he is a proven commodity. The others (primarily prey-driven) would engage too, but the raw aggression from the defense guy is somehow different from the prey-driven dogs' aggression, and is truly unnerving.

VK/zip seems to be back, after being banned multiple times, in multiple forums, and his comments or utterances are not worthy of comment.

@Koots
Coincidentally the male you posted about Ero van de Herdgang is very similar to the male I had at my house this summer. This male also had several Tiekerhook dogs in his ped as well as old time grates such as Eros and Sagus B Schloss, Crok, Drigon, Racker, Igor v d Herdgang , and Gento Haus Larwin. This dog was a definitely something different, and first time I met a dog that was so willing to push an adult human being out of the way to get what he wanted; trainer told me I was being set up to be bitten and to return the dog asap, which i did. Few days later the dog bit its original breeder , but his wife is intent on keeping him. Spoke to her last week , and she said they will not try to place him anymore as he is 150% dog.
I like this kind of dog and if Shawni wants he can check Witmer Tyson Haus in CA. They import many titled dogs and they get many LE dogs returned to them because of excessive aggression and other issues. The returned dogs are sold at reasonable prices.

I also had a recent opportunity to meet an IPO3 dog out on Long Island, NY. As I ( a complete stranger ) approached the handler and dog.. the dog had ZERO interest in me or my presence; the dog just sat there looking away . There was nothing impressive about this dog's demeanor.

Mithuna if that is the type of dog u are interested in . Please share your knowledge on how u would control and handle such a dog . How would work this dog in a manner that u and everyone around u would be safe. How u would heel a dog with such aggression or even a simple task as down . I here u say on nearly every post this is your type of dog . U had one in your home according to u and as soon as u felt uncomfortable U sent him packing . I ask u to please share your handler knowledge

I think Mithuna has already clarified in another post that he wishes to raise a puppy of this type from the beginning, instead of owning an adult.

Much more easier IMO.

I would agree with u on the puppy . But u still need a certain a mount of handler knowledge and experience with pups like Mithuna wants the grow fact and will not tolerate bad handling. So I would still like to here what he had to say . A small handling error will lead to a big lesson and more than likely not for the dog

First…I don’t just train IPO dogs. I’ve done helper work for LE as well.

Second…the things you guys “rip” on with the few IPO dogs that you’ve met are all TRAINED behaviors. Yes, there are dogs with a more natural predisposition to aggression and being more socially aware and reactive (not used in a negative way). There are also dogs that don’t react that way and will only react once a true threat is presented. These variations have always been in the breed as a dog that is more apt to react at just a person coming up to them would never be a service dog. Yet that dog would make a better LE/PPD prospect. The type of temperament comes down to personal preference, but no matter what, dogs that react to regular people without a threat are not to standard and that is not the preferred temperament of the GSD and never has been. A dog really shouldn’t be reacting without reason. And if you do want your dog to believe that a person coming near them is a reason that’s fine, but that’s still a trained behavior or lack of training for self control.

For some reason it’s forgotten or just plain ignored that 99% of IPO dogs are pets. Some are allowed to lack social manners because they are kennel dogs, but the majority of them are pets that live in the home with people and are taken normal pet places. Most people don’t need their dog lighting up and “defending” them from everyone that walks by. A lot of people also don’t like their dogs barking at everything that walks by their house or yard because it’s an annoyance to them or their neighbors. Most people will never be burglarized or have an intruder in their home, trespassers are accidental most of the time and not there to cause harm, so a dog that attacks is not necessary for the majority of people. I don’t mind the type of dog Mithuna fantasizes about owning, but in truth that dog is not cut out for 99% of homes or even working jobs.

Very good points BW, especially regarding the standard.

I tend to think Mithuna and some others would be happiest with a junk yard dog for the purposes they describe.