Is a healthy bred to standard red and black shepherd as elusive as a unicorn? - Page 4

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by Swarnendu on 30 August 2016 - 21:08

Bubba, did you just mention genetic problems? Weren't, according to YOU, everything predominantly environmental?

Anyway,

To produce a Sable, AT LEAST one of the parents HAVE TO be a Sable. Overuse of Inbreeding....

To produce a Self-black, GUARANTEED success if BOTH the parents are Self-blacks. Overuse of Inbreeding....

Black & Tan GSDs, due to their overwhelming majority, don't really NEED inbreeding to produce that colour.

I agree with your concern regarding Black & Red, or any other uncommon colours/combinations.


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 31 August 2016 - 23:08

To get to the so called red and black standard the breeder must breed out sable because it is dominant. Double sable males and females can never produce red and black ..never. The SV had to implement a rule against dogs with hair coloring at events because people were giving their dogs a red permanent to get to the right shade of red. Likewise photo's with red dogs and orange grass were once common place. The hoot is that dogs don't see red so to them red, brown and green all look the same.


by Swarnendu on 01 September 2016 - 07:09

Bubba, no sane breeder breeding for Tan-point would START with a pair True Sable in the first place, because they wouldn't get any B&T puppy out of that mating. Still, if someone goes that way, he would have to ADD B&T in the second AND third generation (more, if they are unlucky), not SUBTRACT Sable. They are adding new blood, the opposite to what you claim.

 

Further, Breeders who are sane enough not to start with Sables to get B&T actually ADD Sables in their line, because they believe in a YET to be scientifically proved theory, that ADDING Sable enhances the colour contrasts of Tan-point.


kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 01 September 2016 - 07:09

I think you should really talko Tracy Bullinger.

She breeds to the standard, she works and competes with her dogs, she knows the lines, what they produce, and takes pride in what she does.
I have a gorgeous red and black male i got from her and I &ave been more than happy with him.

by lckw on 01 September 2016 - 11:09

Thank you kitkat3478 I have contacted Tracy Bullinger based on the recommendations on this thread and I am impressed with her dogs and impressed with the fact that she mentions healthy and LONGEVITY. There is a distance issue and of course the issue of fear and worry we would lose another GSD tragically at too young of an age and emotionally and financially we are not just ready to take that chance. Our friends and family would start whispering we need to be committed if we did it again. By the way we do have and have had other dogs; rescues, mutts, questionable bred, etc. and they all lived very long lives. We have an old girl who we are currently consoling since she has now lost 2 GSD buddies by outliving them and she is going strong at 14 years old.

When it happened the first time with a sable by the way for those who argue sable has no health issues we thought it was a rare unlikely to occur experience. He had health issues for more than a year prior to his death so we didn't expect him to have a long life. Still when he died a sudden death we were shocked but we did not do a necropsy because when we found his body too much time had passed.

With our most recent dog a necropsy was done because in addition to being shocked we were angry and wanted answers. The physical exam showed that by all appearances this dog should still be alive. It was only with the additional step and expense of sending tissue and organ samples out to Texas A&M that we could get more information but naturally there is no definitive absolute thus we are left we just as many questions as we started with regarding a dog that only lived a 1/3 of his expected lifespan. The pedigree of this dog looks fine it looks like the vast majority of any of the others that are seen here in that it has beautiful dogs, a fair amount of impressive titles, no obvious inbreeding, but it also has no health histories of the family and no longevity information.

You do not have to look very hard or far to find GSD breeders who promote themselves as reputable who have many recommendations or who have dogs in trials, shows, sports, etc. and still boast on 'big boned' or extra large as if it was source of pride. So for the comment I am looking in the wrong place, it may be more of a case you have not noticed the obvious. In fact, the size of the breeding stock is rarely shown in any descriptions and again that is left of off the pedigrees. It may be assumed that because the dogs have ratings or titles the size is correct and standard. But everyone who has been to shows knows of the cases where a too large dog was allowed to be in the ring, where the dogs were not measured at all, or where a dog's show career was prior to it reaching the oversize and the titles remain in place.

For the comments about red and black, it is of course part of the standard. It just happens to be my preference and on my wish list because I simply think they are beautiful.................red and black, genetically healthy, bred to standard, and long lived. It really doesn't seem to be such a fantasy driven wish list but somehow it remains elusive, out of reach, or at least 2000 miles away.

bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 01 September 2016 - 13:09

Swarnendu ..... Red and black is not the same as black and tan ... please show me a red and black BSZS winner with a sable ancestor in the last 5 generations. Red and blacks are highly inbred for generations to get to a breeding population that will produce mostly red and black color puppies to sell for money as red and black ( an inbred subset of the GSD population as a whole bred for appearance ) puppies sell for a $1000 or more premium over any other color. Go to the beauty show that is the BSZS and see how many colors other than red and black are entered ... how many of the dogs there have a sable or any other color parent ??? The answer is close to zero. Inbreeding for red and black coloration has a cost that is paid by the buyers and the dogs themselves. The red and black GSD doesn't see the color red ... only the humans.

Sue-Ann

by Sue-Ann on 01 September 2016 - 13:09

Select Shepherds "Jigger Johnson von der Hainstadt" http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=488523-jigger-johnson-von-der-hainstadt Just turned 12 yesterday. He's OFA hips, elbows, cardiac, CERF and DM clear (Gensol). At 12, he's extremely healthy...never a lame day, never a day sick. His dad was 14.5 years when we lost him and had the same story...never lame, never sick. www.selectshepherds.com Imports at $3800, domestic born dogs $2500.

by lckw on 01 September 2016 - 15:09

Thanks Sue-Ann. The fact you have long lived dogs gives me hope where as Buddaboo is basically saying there is no hope.


by Swarnendu on 01 September 2016 - 17:09

Ickw, what Bubba is trying to point is worth considering. NEVER, whle searching for a puppy, look for a particular colour. Healthy & bred to standard- that should be your ONLY concern. The colour is only a bonus, not a necessity.

Bubba, Black & Red is only a variation of Tan-point, nothing more, nothing less.

But, I have already agreed with your concern in my first post.

"I agree with your concern regarding Black & Red, or any other uncommon colours/combinations.".

Koots

by Koots on 01 September 2016 - 17:09

lckw - some people say the glass is half full, some say it is half empty. Bubba says there is no glass and that it's a gov't conspiracy to make you think there is one.   Wink Smile  Teeth Smile   j/k bubba.






 


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