Aggression, Hard Dogs and thoughts out loud - Page 3

There seems to be a total breakdown on what constitutes  a true German Shepherd anymore.

WHY must a dog forfeit his life to fulfill anyones ideals or misconceptions of what a real, true working German Shepherd is supposed to be.

   This dog is dual certified working police k9. He will, and has taken down many an offender, he is well known in his work arena,

Is he hard? Ask those he has taken down and out...

Is he true to the breed, ask his kids he sleeps with at night

What he Gustav said ^

The point I am interested in is, what sort of life does these dogs have and what happens to the dogs when their work or competition time is up simply because they are so fed up with the demands of training and competing? What happens for the failures who having trained for the aggression and hardness to meet the extreme levels asked for by trainers and owners?

I'm pretty sure everyone answered your second paragraph question already.?!  The dog/(s) live with their current owners or are retired and live out life with a suitable family, person or couple... Same thing that happens to retired police K9s if they can't be kept by their handler.

Gustav I started this thread with “We quite often read comments relating to the topic of this thread, particularly from the USA, where these qualities (?) seem to be the be all and end all requirement for the dogs” and, that in no way implies that I am saying the USA as a whole is this way inclined. However, the PDB forum is mainly made up from comments in the USA. I am only commenting on the posts that I read from US posters. As a poster of many years you have seen the posts with extreme comments and videos to demonstrate the points. You have also read the vociferous and bitter comments from the working and breed side as I have. So just what conclusions can a reader make after reading these sort of comments. I agree with you regarding Holland and Belgium and, I also agree with you that hardness and aggression can be vastly different. I put them together because so many people take aggression as being hard. I also agree that the show people, wherever they come from, who are not required to qualify their dog in IPO, SchH etc have little or no experience in what is required in training a working dog.

When Kitkat writes “ WHY must a dog forfeit his life to fulfill anyones ideals or misconceptions of what a real, true working German Shepherd is supposed to be“KitKat is right. GSDfan writes”I do not see too many dogs who have strong levels of aggression and hardness in the hands of top sport people who aren't meeting expectations. For the small number of occasions this does happen, I do know a handful of experienced protection dog people with big hearts who have taken in the unwanted. Others were pts. Some were bounced around to different homes where the dog was just kenneled and just used to make puppies, some were sold to PD's and one was sold to a better trainer and made into a top competition dog“. vtgsd writes “ The dog/(s) live with their current owners or are retired and live out life with a suitable family, person or couple... Same thing that happens to retired police K9s if they can't be kept by their handler. Is that every dog or just a contradiction to GSDfan, or, wishful thinking.

Mackenzie

What happens for the failures who having trained for the aggression and hardness to meet the extreme levels asked for by trainers and owners? 

My very first dog was a Bouvier, of byb quality, whom I got when my mother had a momentary lack of judgement and agreed to let me get a dog, probably to stop my badgering, lol.   I was 18, and had already scoped out an ad for Bouvier pups in the local paper, so off I went to get a puppy.    I picked the biggest and pushiest in the litter.    

As my dog grew up, he became very protective of his property and his family, yet was ever-so-gentle with children and was particularly fond of the kids next door.     He was an ugly dog by show Bouvier standards, and was around 110 lbs, with a hardness that many GSD owners would admire.   The problem was when this big dog started to feel he had to protect me, or my sister, from joggers or skateboarders on our walks (on leash - he never did bite anyone).     I knew that he was becoming a liability, so I started him in schutzhund, to control his aggression.

After training in the sport, this dog became reliable and not a liability.   He was trained to be aggressive only on command, or when we were attacked.     He became much more pleasant to walk, as we did not worry about his indiscriminate attempts to lunge at joggers or skateboarders.     In fact, one time my sister was walking him on the beach, off-leash (designated off-leash area) and a little girl ran up to him, arms flailing, and wrapped her arms around this huge dog's neck, her face right in his.    My dog licked her face gently, as my sister lambasted the mother about letting her little daughter do that to any dog.

The point of my post is, this dog was out of control BEFORE bite training, and AFTER training was a dependable, predictable and SAFE dog, but also a fierce protector.   The control of the bite training for schutzhund resulted in a much better dog, that was not a public liability anymore.

 

I guess Mack is wondering about all these current posts about "hard", "aggressive", "civil", "gangsta" dogs, and, most importantly, their training...

He doesn´t seem to be afraid about the dogs trained in clubs or by police, but about the dogs owned by "normal" people, who dream about training their dogs "civil", and who talk a lot about "civil" agitation, but don´t talk about socialisation, balance, obedience, or even a simple "out" command.

"Civil" agitation without socialisation, obedience, and knowledge can be dangerous for the dog and for its surrounding, for most "pets" ( and as far as I was able to figure out several promotors on these threads are just "pet" owners ) it´s even senseless.

Some dogs are not capable for civil work, and when forced into this kind of work, they may become unstable, a potential danger for family and society.

Out of these posts/threads newcomers, first dog handlers, now may think only a "civil" biting German Shepherd dog is "a real dog" - nonsense - in case you do have a family, and you want to have fun with your dog first and foremost - it´s about obedience, and activity. Train a bark and hold, and you will be fine, but don´t forget about the recall...

In my country people tend to start with tracking, obedience, IPO bitework ( a lot of stuff to learn for dog and handler ), they don´t start with hidden sleeve work, or muzzle work...

Later on, when the handler already learned and internalized the foundations about dog training as a whole, they may start to work a dog "civil", but by then they know what they are doing.

I wonder if we aren't talking more about the nature of the people, rather than the dogs.

I'm sure GSDFan is right; a small proportion of the dogs trained for sports or PP are ruined, and become a liability, because there are an equally small - but relevant ! - number of poor trainer / handlers.  People DO get part way through the work then get fed up & drop out when it gets difficult; or they 'dabble' in bits of the training that appeal to them, without getting to grips with the Out etc; or they pick a club that isn't up to scratch and does not educate them sufficiently. And yes one wonders what happens to the dogs 'blown out' in these circumstances. Nobody here wants to talk about that scenario.

Yet it is true that the sheer volume of comment on the board about bitework & drives etc gives the casual observer a distorted overall impression, especially of what is going on in the US. However, I wish we here in the UK had a real history of actually getting off our arses and working this breed ! Fact is, we haven't. There is more interest, both from the 'working lines' and that minority of Show people that is involved in IPO, nowadays, than there has been at virtually any time in the UK except for those years immediately following WWII. And I know from my own experiences and contacts over the years that it IS quite difficult for 'Show/Breed' owners and Handlers to get a full picture of what happens on the working side - and this even in a nation where geography helps and the two groups do manage to overlap and converse/consult.

I was very fortunate in that my 'mentor' had an "in" with

Obedience, Trials and Police / Services workers who I

was able to talk with and watch training;  but I know from

meeting many other Show people that most of them hadn't

a clue about "keeping the GSD a working breed."

"There seems to be a total breakdown on what constitutes a true German Shepherd anymore"

I believe it started in 1881- ish or the second day after German Shepherd Dog Club was formed.

Second only to religion, nothing else on earth brings out more experts then a GSD ;)~

 

Ps that was just a funny kitkat not directed at you........ Lol and 4 smily faces 

Koots, a well trained dog is fun, a "civil" dog without proper training is a liability.
In my country almost no trained / titled dogs ( IPO ) are involved into "dog bites / accidents".
The better trained, the lesser stress...

Very good posts Susie.

Best regards

Mackenzie