What is a Gansta Dog? - Page 7

Got it thanks I misunderstood 

Guess we need to decide between "gangsta"dogs and "hard" dogs.

The most "gangsta" dogs I had the "pleisure" to meet have been unbalanced, unsocial dogs, whereas real "hard" dogs can be very good dogs - not for everybody, but an experienced handler is able to deal with them - they are hard, but they are not unfair. You always are able to understand their ( re ) actions.

Are we talking about "hard", but stable dogs, or are we talking about "unbalanced, unsocial" dogs?
There seems to be a lot of confusion.
While a hard dog may be the jackpot for a breeding program, a real gangsta dog is useless.

Ding Ding.
Next round.

What is 'social' ? Have heard it described on here (many times
each) as - alternatively - "very friendly when not working, happy
to be around people" (the correct interpretation, I suggest, of the
English word 'social', on this side of the Pond where the language
was born); and as its opposite: "completely [ANTI] -social, i.e. not
socialised, unfriendly, liable to bark/bite, or at best a kind of pronounced
neutrality (with an edge !)."

Do wish you guys would get together and stop giving words used
in dog training 2 different meanings all the time ! Mostly you can
work out which version is meant, from the context of the particular
post ... but it can be very confusing ! You need to elect someone
who IS "the last word", maybe, and having established a benign
dictatorship, STICK TO ONE INTERPRETATION. lol.

You folks over there started it, a dog engaging a threat in offence to move the threat away is really in defence defending the flock. A civil dog contains no civility. A working dog can have no job no paid income but yet play sports all day. Lol, you stick to one first........

I repeat what I have said before on page 1. : Gangster dog is a term devised by German breeders in the past. It has nothing to do with pit bulls. Most pit bulls are actually not gangster dogs. Gangster dogs are dominant dogs which will never accept submissive position - they will never accept a leader and will fight if someone tries to dominate them by even giving then simple command - if they do not like it even though they performed such command before. They will never ever submit often even to negative punishment ( withdrawal of the reward.) - they rather die. 4 pillars of dog training do not work on such dogs. They are what they are genetically and can not be changed. Such dogs had been added by breeders into the program to bring defense into overly prey based or overly friendly lines. Such dogs are not suitable for anything much except for such breeding effort and area protection. There are only handful of such dogs and handful of people who can handle them. Such handler must understand that the dog will work for them only if they like to do so and like the rewards. I know of case where the +only trainer was determined that such dog can be trained with + only and used reward ( treats) training. It worked well until the dog decided that he does not want to work, but just want treats. the trainer used withdrawal of reward and the dog took the trainer's face off and then ate all the treats. Their you go Gangster dogs. Prager Hans

Hard dog is dog who will not submit to enemy. Gangster dog will not submit to anyone.

Gangster dogs are not about pleasure to be around nor they are  unstable/unbalanced. Unstable dog is not unpredictable. These dogs are predictable to a "t" . I can tell you what the reaction of the gangster dog will be to what ever stimulus. Gangster dogs have personality of an apex predator. Like grizzly. Is Grizzly unbalanced? No. Grizzly if challenged, will not submit nor retreat. That is a very desirable quality in a pp dog. But what is undesirable in such dog is that he will only at best go along with the handler/trainer but will never submit to his demand. He is apex of dominance. Just like Grizz.  

Breeding is about dove tailing and compensating.Only novice breeder - bless his/her heart or an complete idiot thinks that when he will match two perfect dogs he will produce perfect progeny. But surprise surprise - no dog is perfect. Thus we always breed imperfect dogs to each other. When you breed two dogs, the art is then to match fault with quality where the quality is genetically dominant. That quality then overcomes the fault. It is about compensations for faults with pluses.

 Now back to Gangster dogs. Gangster dog is also not perfect dog. No surprise there. Now the reason to breed a gangster dog and any dog for that matter,  is to get desirable and eliminate undesirable. In this case the desirable is - hardness = not willingness to back away from stressful situations like from a perp hitting the dog with steel bar on the head. ( I am graphic in order to make point) Gangster dog, same as grizzly, in such situation will   only get pissed off, his anger level goes up . He does not know how to give up. He knows only how to go forward and win or die. WHO WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE HERO DOG LIKE THAT!? However the problem is that our gangster dog will not submit even to his owner. That is a big problem if one has dog like that. So we then go and breed our gangster dog to a very biddable female which is probably from 3rd male blood line or 5th and produced many biddable dogs with variety of males. And so did her parents and grandparents and her litter mates are also biddable and produce it.

 For that you then  need to keep and keep track of many dogs . Some may be appalled by dogs not sleeping with their owner in the bed but if you want to improve the breed, then you need to have a lot of dogs under your control . Z Pohranicni straze had at least 1500 dogs in their   kennels.

But lets go to our gangster dog being bred to biddable female which  obviously has biddability trait which is very ( genetically) dominant ( since all those siblings and ancestors and progeny are biddable) . So now when pups are born there is a high probability that some pups are going to be very hard but very biddable . Then people like VK can have dog who kicks ass and will not give up but will listen to his commands since he is not only hard but also biddable. That is of course thanks to breeders like me and Jiri Novotny and even Joanro and many other knowledgeable man and woman which he continuously claims do not know what they are doing since as he in his famous style says : " gangsta dog is useless as a working dog due to a poor temperament, unreliability and is unstable in the head. The complete opposite of a good well bred German Shepherd. Don't know why any breeder would think this a good thing, gangsta dog should be seen as another word for cull."

So there you go. I hope this helps to ones who care to understand and learn about gangster dogs and how and why to breed them . However to chronic detractors can not anything  be advised.  

 Prager Hans 

They ruined a perfectly good word on those dogs. Ho hum I like apex, better.

Can someone name an actual gangster GSD?

Gigante : touche, you of course have a point there (well, in
your last two examples anyway, not entirely sure I follow the
first). But I would be the last to defend the eccentricities of the
English language - except that if we are guilty of those you say,
at least we in the UK are all guilty and the terms are in universal
use. We don't have the misunderstandings because everybody
uses, or misuses, those terms the same. Not a case, as it is
when we visit here, of half the posters saying a word means one
thing and the other half arguing it's just the opposite. LOL