German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 5

For sure not from me, Gigante - I don´t even know words of this kind - check it

I get literally hundreds of requests to read specific pedigrees from people all over the world. One of the things I usually include in my reply is that the individual selection of pup is critical to their receiving what they want based on genetics. As Susie I think is trying to say there is so many possible variations of structure and temperament that can occur in traditional litter of eight, that selection is as important as traits of the "lines". That withstanding, the CLOSER and LONGER you linebreed on certain traits/types the more uniform the recessives and dominants. So lines that are completely saturated with a narrow scope based on traits like color, structure, or temperament can have some predictability for varying numbers of the litter from 2/3 to 7/8 out of the proverbial eight puppy litter.
Also, the position of dogs in pedigrees is also very important, though much more complicated. Whether a known producer is male or female, are they on the dam side or the sire side; is the linebreeding in pedigree primarily within the parents individually or is the combination of the parents together constituting the linebreeding or a combination of both. That is why bloodlines is more of an art than science, because it can be incalculable and yet definitive.

Gustav@

Where do lines come from? If care was taken by breeding programs to increase/maintain the soup within the line with regards to drive lets say, what is the exp date on the genetic soup with regards to passing that identified trait? 2 gen 10 gen?

Ibrahim thank you for your excellent poibnt of view.  But do not forget that on top of it there is dominance of certain genes passed down the line and being threatened. And do not forget popularity of the characteristics which public wants. 

vk4gsd I have answered the question.

Detractors of this system are making on cardinal mistake. The mistake of turning  exceptionably rare event of occurrence of  bloodline into  mathematical exercise. The reason this works is not just based on the fact of line breeding and promotion of specific genes but also on human psychology which inadvertently generates these lines. If you line breed then you are strengthening genes which you line breed. If you selectively breed on dominant genes  then you are  strengthening the genetic back ground even more. So considering these 3 premises ( Math, genetics, human psychology) above then how is the line created? Or because none can decide to create single handedly a bloodline  I should rather say ; How does the bloodline "OCCURS".

 There had been  99.999% +/- ( just illustrative number) failure to generate a blood line . You can not just go and say I'll start a blood line. Bloodline happens very rarely,... rarely to almost never. I mean  since creating a GSD it happened only 5 times!!!!

This is how it goes. Imagine in early days there was  a dog which was considered excellent. "Everybody" would like to have a dog like that thus they want his progeny. Here is what happens next:

 a/If the stud does not produce himself - line dies out. The most common scenario.

 b/ the stud produces himself but his subsequent progeny very rarely or not at all produce him self - lines dies out. also quite common and when you look at charts you can see some lines which made it a little way but then they died out.

 c/ the stud produces himself and significant number of his progeny also produced by "dog" public admired traits of the original stud. However in time among the breeders and dog public  the popularity of the  traits which the dog possessed, changed. That line faded away too. One example of line which struggles not to fade away is 1st line. So far the line hangs on.  

  d/ the stud produces himself and significant number of his progeny also produced by "dog" public admired traits of the original stud. This then goes on and on since such traits are continually considered popular.  This is very rare proposition and it happened basically only 5 times in history of breeding of GSDs. That is why we have 5 blood lines. These founders ( the dogs) of the line were very good and their genes were dominant. That is why they were being passed on and on and strengthened with line breeding because breeders like to line breed on popular dogs . That single condition of genetic dominance   uproots the linear approach as we have seen it described here. 

 Thus this is not just simple mathematical formula involving  simple 5th grade  arithmetic.  But it is also  and most importantly of dominance in genetics and human psychology. For line to occurr all the stars must be just in the right constellation.  

 To unbelievers I would like to add something to put into their  pipe and smoke it . And that is the  fact that these 5 lines exists. Just a mere presence of these line is a single most important proof  that they exist.  You can literally touch and examine.  And if you do so you will find out that dogs bred in line will  produce certain characteristic of that line. It is right there in front of our face. Thus rather then deny it try to figure out why what we have at our hand works. 

 Cheers:) 

 Hans 

Gigante: " I get it I didn't think you are disagreeing I think you outlined the idea well Susie just cant grasp it. This is an issue with anyone in the mix alot crowd all lines should be watered down with every other line. If thats perfectly acceptable to someone, then this type of breeding is ludicious. Its all about the dog in front of them. They will never get it. "

Sorry, have been at work the whole day - I guess you wanted to say "ludicrous", I really had to google this word ( either it was not teached at school or I forgot it ) ...

"Susie just can´t grasp it."

Gigante, you seem to underestimate me, although I sometimes need to read a post written in a foreign language twice, I am either able to understand the topic, or I ( try to ) keep quite.

You don´t know me, that´s okay, I guess we never met each other. Only for your record: I am a firm believer in good linebreedings, and I always tried to get puppies out of parents/grandparents/great grandparents ( in one case great great grandparents ) I either handled or at least had the chance to see with my own eyes, from breeders I trusted in case of temperament and working ability.
I believe in genetics, but my belief does end at the point the breeder in question started his own "line".

I don´t scrutinize the success of Jinopo, according to their web page they started in 1970. That´s a long period for a single breeder, but it´s a glimpse compared to Hektor Schwaben, born around 1900. They used dogs born in the late sixties/early seventies, not born in 1900 for breeding. In the meantime thousands of thousands(!) of breeders made their own decisions, based on their own preferences.

What do I want to say? None of us knows squat about the "real" Hektor, the "real" Utz, and so on ( 5 lines ? ). A breeder is responsible for the dogs he picks for breeding, he is responsible for his "line" - did you realize that I admire breeders able to create their own line, by breeding dogs I am able to recognize ( Wow, that´s a true xyz dog! ) ?

Further on ALL the really successful breeders in my country don´t tend to use a strong father- , but a very strong motherline. Although our "German" bloodline plans mention the fatherline only, too, in reality the basis of all successful breeders is the motherline. The best stud is useless without the perfect dam...

Prager said: " There are basically five male blood lines. You go backwards on pedigree from your dog to his sire to male to male until you arrive to the founder of the bloodline. First dog from the dog's below you arrive to is the founder of the blodline. "

You can´t go "backwards" in the pedigree of dogs you didn´t breed, simply because you didn´t make the decisions - thousands of decisions made by thousands of different breeders with thousands of different goals, thousands of dogs, males and females - it´s not possible, in the best case it´s "wishful thinking".

A breeder should believe in his own stock, in case of Jinopo they should be proud of the "lines" they created over the decades, but they shouldn´t try to start at Adam ( forgetting Eve ), they never met him.

Just my personal opinion, everybody should feel free whatever he or she wants to believe - we can´t proof it...

If you take watered down dogs and start breed them in line you will recover the characteristics of the line you breed in. I have already explained that.

Susie JINOPO did not created concept of breeding in male bloodlines! Male bloodline always existed and was used and always will exist as long as we breed dogs, cows, horses, cats, canaries.... if you or I or Joe Blow like it or believe it or not is irrelevant and the earth does not stop spinning just because someone does not believe it or understands why....or what in these matters educated or ignorant breeders do.
Educated breeders will use this knowledge to their great benefit and the other will not. That is all. Free world.
One thing you are right about and I have already pointed it out. If someone does not use this concept then they will not be able to predict consistently and produce as consistently characteristics which they desire. Yes,... as you describe it = breeding not using the benefit of knowledgeable breeders in concept of male blood lines will eventually generate goulash Or as Jiri ( Creator of z Pohranicni straze) breedings aptly said it: "If you do not use the knowledge of breeding in line, you will have SH1T. " I am nicer and thus I call it goulash instead. -:)
Hans

One point to consider, I might be incorrect, but here is what I think:
if we have credible members on this board who knew Marko, Mutz, Quanto and Canto who were dogs of the sixties, more than 50 years ago, then in the sixties there were individuals/breeders/judges who knew dogs from the 1910/1920/1930.
I remember in previous posts on this forum members talked about old famous dogs they saw and owned some of their sons or daughters.
Info is there, difference is, I think, some of us are fortunate to have it 1st hand, but many of us don't.
This is not to oppose you Susie, after all you might have bigger portion of the real truth, who knows !!!