If someone breeds American Show Types... - Page 5

Uberland, I'm sorry but your comment, "each line carries its spooks", is often used to justify the pathectic state of the ASL temperament. Yes, each line does carry spooks, but if the workinglines give you one out of every 15 dogs, and the German Showlines give you 2 out of every 8, and the ASL gives you 4or5 out of every eight and often I have seen whole litters that were shy, then your statement has no revelance and is deceiving. It implies this is something to be expected in all lines.....WRONG!.....it is expected and accepted in many ASL breedings though often the breeders have elaborate excuses for the temperament.(You know, somebody shouted too loud over the puppies when they were 4 weeks, kinda stuff). With other lines its not only NOT expected but very rare. Of the last 42 puppies I have had in past 6 years, none were shy and all were outgoing to people and noise at eight weeks. Buyers always commented on this especially those that said they had been to see an American line litter. Too me this type of misleading rationalizing is what allows many ASL breeders to justify their temperament. Its like if I produced litters with 70% dyplastic dogs but then I tell people," Well all lines have HD in them", So its cool for me to continue with my dogs with terrible producing hips. Uberland this isn't geared to you personally, but to the comment you made that I hear too often to justify the sad state of ASL. JMO

Sunsilver V rated  ,DDR seiger Bodo von Grafental was also used by the Trommel program......for some reason I can't make the link work....................My Mauli puppy
s grandfather is Bodo's grandson.....................................(von grafental)

Gustav, the excuse I have heard most often is that "oh, the airline people must have dropped his crate and frightened him".

This was the standard excuse for years for any spooky pup that was shipped in..

Rik

Yes Rik, it is truly sad. When you think about it what does it say about the genetics of a dog that a dropped crate will have"lifetime" effect. WHAT is WRONG with these people????? People like you Rik I have respect for because you was in the game and you are "HONEST" about the ASL dog. Its not like the rest of the world doesn't know also, yet many of these breeders still have their heads in the sand.I was showing ASL dogs in 1974 in the Southeast, USA. I saw then the genetic shyness even then, as a result I imported my first dog in 1975 and have never looked back. But this line has been in bad shape for a long long time. Least back then you still had some american lines doing police/seeing eye/military work. Now....they are practically extinct from the work force.....a travesty!!

You know some people think I am hard on the ASL, but its not hard..I am truthful. and if the truth makes people sick then they should take the medicine that will correct the truth!. You are right about they cannot salvage the ASL by breeding a couple times to WGSL. The really ignorant ASL breeders will try to breed to workinglines to correct temperament and create shy aggressive time bombs. the only way to correct the ASL dog is to reverse the breeding practice that put the dog into the shape it is in. That's breeding for temperament for 10 to fifteen generations with dogs that have no genetic relationship to the ASL in the past forty years. You can do it. Hell you won't see Lance or Sundance in any German, Czech, or DDR liness. But of course if you take this medicine to correct the temperament and structure so the dog can work again, then you are no longer breeding ASL dogs because it will take 25 years of breeding away from these  lines to minimize to an acceptable level the shyness genes, and strengthen the nerve genes . At least enough so you can breed a litter and be reasonably sure that these traits are an exception. If you do that and still place value on conformation, you will look up and see you have dogs structurally that look like the dogs in the sixties again, or the V rated West workinglines or Czech dogs. That is the only way they will salvage this ASL short of never breeding them. Painful pill for the croup, angulation, shoulder, specialist....Yes, but necessary to reverse the damage.JMO

ok Gustav and Rik- every ASL dog is crap and every camel back dog is an awesome and marvelous specimen of the breed.  I love open minded people. I suppose I should tell my dogs they have crappy temperaments and that they are spooks. (no one told them that before, so they dont know it). Their TC title means nothing, just because they are am bred, and the fact that they werent raised with childen but know instinctively when it is time to be gentle is a freak accident.  I guess I am done here- I dont wish to be a part of a close minded board which will only hasten the demise of the breed. I think someone quite famous said "let he who is without sin amongst you cast the first stone".  While u see perfection only in GB GSDS, the fact of the matter is that The german lines no longer look like GSDS, either, with that ridiculous hump in the middle of their backs that the German Breeders bred into them. There aint no hump in the back of the german lines earlier or when Max bred them!  WHO has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous? But I supose you think that is correct, as well. There is a happy medium, but there is way too much kennel blindness going on on this board for me to want to be a part of it. I guess most intenet boards are just nasty,  God be with you......  Bye

Marjorie
Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3
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[sarcasm] Ok Gustav and Rik- every ASL dog is crap and every camel back dog is an awesome and marvelous specimen of the breed.....[/sarcasm]


Well said, Marjorie, well said. There is far too much kennel blindness on both sides of the ocean. The main problem is the breeders are striving for extremes to win those all-important ribbons and trophies.

The American showline has focussed on sidegait to exclusion of just about all else, producing dogs that can trot like the wind, but at the worst, have poor temperment and very little working ability.

The German showline is in danger of going the same route. With the focus on sidegait, and 'a croup as long as possible' many of the dogs are starting to resemble roach-backed American lines. Their backs are too long, their hind legs are too weak to support their massive 'stallion-type' fronts, and they walk on their hocks. The hind end is all out of proportion with the rear, and they have to lift their front legs 5 to 10" off the ground at the trot in order to compensate for the weak rear.

German working lines still bear some resemblence to the Shepherds the breed founder was breeding and titleing. However, with the focus on over the top drives and bite grip, these dogs tend to be 'mouth monsters' even as puppies, shredding their owner's pant legs. At the worst, these dogs have so much drive they make poor pets. They will kill other animals due to their strong prey drive, and trash their owner's homes unless kenneled. Many cannot herd, as they have too much prey drive, and will hurt or kill the sheep. (Don't tell me I'm full of hot air: I've seen threads on this very board about this happening!)

Now, before y'all jump all over me, please note: I am talking about EXTREMES here. We ALL know there are exceptions to the above. There ARE American lines that can work and aren't spooks. There ARE showlines that don't have extremely roached backs, and don't look like there was some chow or mastiff blood crossed into the bloodlline somewhere. And there ARE working lines that make good house pets, and are still able to perform well in Schutzhund.

There's more I want to say about this, but first I have to find the article that sums it all up the best. It has to do with breeding for the show ring making dog useless to do the original work the breed was meant for, because of this focus on extremes.